I kept saying that Grant had inherited a mess and that he needed time. There was a faction sworn to Avram's overthrow and they were delirious with excitement when O'Neill appeared to be about to replace him, but they are strangely silent now, as week after week, the team performs admirably. Last week we lost at Stoke because of the absurd performance of referee Jones, but I still saw plenty of fight from the team. Yesterday, we put in the sort of performance that I haven't seen from West Ham since the early days of Zola's reign, before he presided over the dismantling of the team and the demoralisation of the playing staff.
According to his critics, Grant can't coach, can't organise a team and can't motivate. Oh yes? Well, that argument was always silly given he took over from Jose at Chelsea and actually improved on the Special One's results, and then took Pompey to Wembley as the club was hit by a financial tsunami. Ask Pompey fans what they think of Avram and you hear nothing but praise. Compare Avram's record to Scolari's and Ancelotti's at the end of this season - if Chelsea don't make it through to the Champions League final - and Grant will emerge as the better man. Odd that given Scolari won a World Cup, Ancelotti is one of the most successful managers in the history of the game and Grant can't coach, can't organise a team and can't motivate. Square that circle if you can!
The Zola apologists will point to the support and backing Grant has received. Support? When Brady undermines him almost weekly in her newspaper column and when O'Neill was lined up to replace him? That is a funny kind of support!
But look at the money he has spent, is the next argument, and, of course, he has spent very little. Ba could cost us £6million but only if he keeps playing and scoring - what a sensible deal! Keane could cost us £6 million; but only if we stay in the Prem. Barerra might cost us £4million, but only if he makes the grade, which seems very unlikely. Bridge is costing us his wages. Jacobsen was picked up for peanuts. Reid has been signed on a structured deal based on appearances. Piquionne was a bargain at £1million. O'Neill is doing a job and cost less than Zola paid for McCarthy and Hitz, incredibly, cost nothing. Given Reid is "one for the future", I think Grant's transfer dealings have been remarkably smart, much smarter than Nani, Zola's and Curbishley's!
But do I hear Grant being given any credit? Why aren't his critics offering apologies? Why aren't the Avram detractors praising him for his signings, his tactics, the motivation of the team and the results? Remember, we also made it through to the semifinal of the League Cup and were robbed of a semifinal place in the FA Cup by an incompetent referee.
Aston Villa spent £24million on Bent in January and stand one point above us! Mark Hughes inherited a Fulham team that reached a Europa League final last season and they are just 3 points above us. Had we beaten Newcastle, West Brom and Blackpool at home, we would now be on 39 points and relegation would not be an issue. Does anybody believe that with Hitz fit, we wouldn't have won those games?
This is not the time to be complacent and in this craziest of seasons, we could yet go down. But our form since Christmas has been very impressive and, for that, Grant deserves credit. So why is it not forthcoming?
totally agree but i just rememberd soemthing that ive liked to have said after the world cup and half wa ythrough a season whe nwe were leaking goals and people still wanted zola and its about ROBERT GREEN how come until zola came there was areason he wasa beign called for no1 keeper for england and under zola he got considerably worse and this is also dow nto teh fact its strange that apparently LUDEK MIKLOSKO was rumoured to have had a falling out with ola and hadnt been coaching green for most of last season then this season we brought in coles from pompeys backroom staff and green looks to be showing his best again
ReplyDeleteI wanted Avram out.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm not so sure. Of course if we carry on with this current form, there will be very few calling for his head in the summer.
However, before Christmas, we consistently lacked the appetite for a battle and even with our injuries, we should have been a little higher up the table.
For me, that is still down to AG's inability to motivate.
As for our recent run, as brilliant as I now feel, how long can it last? The longer it does, the more chance of Parker becoming Player of the Year and then what are the chances of us keeping him?
Reckon Hitz will still be with us next season now that he has showed how good he is? Upson? Isn't Green's contract up? Who will be our left-back? Piq apparently wanted a move before and with all this new money sloshing around because of the Bent, Carroll and Torres deals, do you think the Davids will turn down a relatively big money offer for Cole?
I now this is slightly going off topic, but the point is, the players don't seem to act as if they are in the presence of a managerial genius, do they? Cole gets more inspired by Parkers half-time talks than Grants. Why did Parker take so long to sign that contract if he bought into Grant's vision?
Why so many poor second half performances, what the hell does Grant do at half time?!
If MON is still a possibility then at this moment in time I would take him.
If we remain unbeaten until the end of the season, ask me again!
greeng ot called up tot he world cup under ola. wtf ar eyou t alkinga bout?
ReplyDelete(hf I wouldn't post this fools comments - as he does very little to credit the average west ham fan).
HF, I've been thinking about this and talking to my West Ham friends a lot lately. I'd personally vowed to stay quiet until our fate was settled. But I think your post is very well thought out and I'm looking forward to Sav, Stani, etc to chime in.
ReplyDeleteI was thrilled at the prospect of O'Neill back in January. I'd wanted Grant out since before the loss at Anfield. And there's still a lot of doubt in me over his long term ability. There was a famous ruling in our Supreme Court years ago on obscenity in which one of the Justices (Potter Stewart, I believe) said this on the issue; "I can't define it but I know it when I see it." That's how I've felt about my wish to see Grant replaced.
But any sense of fairness and objectivity says that Grant deserves a fresh look at the very least. If we do pull this off, then he deserves a lion share of the credit. Hitz and Ba were his guys, 100 percent. And those two have been instrumental in our recent success. And all of this done with actually no true support from the board. Brady is one of the most classless people I've ever read about in sports. The gods will punish her one day.
I'm not sure that's the kind of apology you are looking for, but its the best I can offer at this time.
I agree totally, I am of the belieft west ham dont just sack managers. There are still a few things wrong with the side but they look like they can be sorted. I like the fact Avram doesnt seem to make too many of the same mistakes and there does seem a hunger and desire, although something tells me it was something that Parker said at West Brom rather than Grant, but who cares we have some bottle now. Although noticed since Parker played holding role for England Grant has learnt and played parker same way, he does learn!
ReplyDeleteHi HF, I for one wanted Avram to go, but you are dead right, the form right now is excellent. Keep this up and we will be just under halfway at the end of the season. One of the problems earlier in the season that was that we could not get points off teams in the top half of the Division, and we had no luck.
ReplyDeleteNow with a point yesterday and 3 points against Liverpool, that is all changing.
Honestly, we could beat Man U. Well done Avram!
JC
The season lasts for 38 games and that's what I'll judge Grant AND the players on. They're both responsible for our results.
ReplyDeleteOn balance, the season so far has still been a disaster and PL survival by the skin of our teeth won't qualify Grant or the players for any back slapping in my eyes.
It's great that we've finally found some consistent form but this squad, even without Hitz, have massively underperformed and should be confortably mid table.
Well done to those with an open mind! Now then, we await a response from Sav, Stani and a whole host of anonymous Zola acolytes! (I know you were no fan of Zola Sav!)
ReplyDeleteBy the way Stani, what's your take on our involvement in Libya? Genuinely interested in where you stand on it given the "Yes we support it, oh no we don't" approach of the Arab League.
PC, three more points and we would be mid table! That's one bloody result!
ReplyDeleteExcellent article Hammersfan. I believe that if we do survive (and we have given ourselves every chance to do so considering where we were not so long ago), Grant can take this club to bigger and better places than battling against relegation almost every season.
ReplyDeleteWe have played some of the best football in many a year over the past few weeks and our defensive display on the weekend was by far the best we have seen in a long time.
Grant also seems to have a good knack at spotting talent and will only improve our stocks over the summer whilst getting rid of the deadwood he inherited. He could yet turn out to be a terrific West Ham manager.
When my eldest son got an A in his GCE "A" Level Mathematics, I asked him how come he got an A when he was complaining all year that his tutor was totally useless. He replied, "I got an A despite of him!".
ReplyDeleteWell, West Ham is doing reasonably well recently despite Avram Grant. I have to admit he got a few things right (like the back four line up in Saturday's game) but his moments were very few and far between.
On the other hand, there is you HF, ready to make him a hero after 2 wins and a draw. I said before and I repeat again. Despite having strong reservations about AG, I will eat humble pie and concede I was wrong about him if he keeps us up. But not before!
Gadafi and his sons by the way are self centred oppressive, ruthless dictators totally devoid from reality and they deserve everything that is coming to them. Oops, sorry, it was Stani you asked and not me.
ReplyDeleteBut it is interesting however how hypocritical our leaders are who only a short while ago they were his best friends and making huge deals with him (e.g. the Labour party).
Sav, the article is based on 12 games since Christmas in the Prem, not two wins and a draw. You have a son old enough to have completed his A Levels? I wouldn't have put you a day over 30!
ReplyDeleteMaybe, just maybe, your son's tutor was better than your son was giving him credit for. Maybe there is a prejudicial gene that runs in the family! Is the tutor Turkish by an chance?
As for Gadafi, the Labour Party may have done arms deals with him, but the Tories OWN the companies that sold him the weapons. Labour did deals to help the country - cheaper oil; the Tories dio deal to line their own pockets. How many shares in BAe did members of the Tory cabinet buy on Friday I wonder?
Thank you for the compliment about my age by the way. My eldest son is 30 years old, I am twice that.
ReplyDeleteThe prejudicial gene is more likely to be in your DNA HF. I don't judge anyone by his race, religion or colour!
60 years old? It must be the olive oil and vine leaves!
ReplyDeleteSav, I know you've been a supporter a lot longer than I have, but I must say you seem stubborn here. I wanted to absolutely pummel him for most of the season. That was pure emotion brought on by the fear of what seemed to be certain doom. Well that fear has been calmed a bit, and I think I can look at things with a clearer head.
ReplyDeleteBefore the season, Grant was in many ways an open book. Neither his "success" at Chelsea nor his "failure" at Pompey were clear cut. Both situations were foggy at best. So this was his first chance in the EPL to show what he is made of. Results were obviously poor. But there were key injuries, Hitz in particular. I think we still don't know how much of the bad results can be laid at his feet or how much of our recent good form can be placed on his mantle. And HF is absolutely correct in extending this back farther than the past 3 games. In our last 6 league games we have won 3, lost 1, and drawn 2. To say that is largely despite him sounds unfair.
The book is still open not only on his success or failure, but on his quality.
And I got a D in math at my University.
Fans are reactionary and rightly so. If we struggle to show any form of organisation or competence for half a season then it is not unreasonable to demand change.
ReplyDeleteCredit where credit is due, he is having a good run at the moment. But criticism where criticism is due too, he had a mare for the majority of the season. It is still unclear why he needs so many coaches and what he actually does, even if at the moment it is working.
I truely hope you are right because we need to settle on a manager. We cannot keep changing every season as it is not pushing us forward.
I am warming to Avram, but i will save my apology until the end of the season. Just as Avram needed time to show us he could manage, we now need time to see that this improvement is not temporary.
One has to look at all aspects of his time at West Ham i.e New owner's, new manager,crap squad, club on the brink of bankruptcy etc. All this creates quite a long settling down period for everyone.I like to think that it took six months for everyone to understand each others idiosyncrasies and now we are sailing on an even keel to success!
ReplyDeleteha fred148 rob green let in more goals in zolas rein then grants or curbishleys and green only originly got in the england squad under zola due to injury to david james but got in it under curbs before hand and rob green made the world cup mistake before grant and his backroom staff arrived bit of a coincidence aint it
ReplyDeleteUSA Dave, I keep an open mind about AG despite my reservations. I will admit I was wrong if he keeps us up. I hope I am proven wrong because it would make me happy.
ReplyDeleteAparently, my son was so good at Maths he went on to be first to graduate from his course at Imperial College (which was on Mathematics and Computer Science). I am average at Maths myself, so I don't know where he gets it from. I am sure it was not from that particular teacher though. So, it is possible, that things are working fairly well lately at the club and not because Grant has done anything right in particular for it. But I will happily accept he is a genius if we are Premier League club next year.
Need to get a life I guess, but it was either this or mow the lawns! Anyways HF, ‘ere goes; relating to your predictions based upon our form since Christmas, I thought you might be interesting to see what the table would look like if the season had actually started on Boxing day. So I imputed the last 12 results of ALL the premier teams since then and have kept an updated league table based upon said results. Interesting viewing I think you’ll agree! Read into them what you will, but It shows there are a lot of teams who are falling like sh*t from a cow’s ass. I think the final league table will show a lot of teams up who have been riding their luck since the start of the season now starting to show their real worth! Carry on Avram and keep it up lads! CoyGrittyirons!
ReplyDeletePrem table using just the last 12 games results
1st Goonies : W7,D5, L0, GD+15, Pts 26
2nd Man Ure : W8,D1, L3, GD+12, Pts 25
3rd Chelski : W7,D2, L3, GD+10, Pts 23
4th Liverpuds : W7,D2, L3, GD+7, Pts 23
5th Sp**s : W6,D4, L2, GD+4, Pts 22
6th Manc City : W6,D3, L3, GD+9, Pts 21
7th Everton : W6,D3, L3, GD+3, Pts 21
8th Fulham : W5,D4, L3, GD+6, Pts 19
9 th West Ham : W5,D4, L3, GD+2, Pts 19
10th Wolves : W5,D2, L5, GD-1, Pts 17
11th N’castle : W3,D5, L4, GD 0, Pts 14
12th Bolton : W4,D2, L6, GD-4, Pts 14
13th St**e : W4,D1, L7, GD+3, Pts 13
14th Villa : W3,D4, L5, GD-4, Pts 13
15 th Wigan : W3,D4, L5, GD-8, Pts 13
16 th W Brom : W2,D6, L4, GD-8, Pts 12
17th Brummies : W3,D3, L6, GD-11, Pts 12
18th B’burn : W3,D2, L7, GD-7, Pts 11
19th S’d’land : W3,D2, L7, GD-7, Pts11
20th B’pool : W2,D2, L8, GD-11, Pts 8
Wow, well done that man!
ReplyDeleteBloody hell HF. Why do you make me do this?
ReplyDeleteI was going to leave it but you would have got a stiffy thinking youve been proved right (let's be honest, that is the purpose of this blog). You dont deserve that stiffy HF, so here goes....
Why do I have to keep wasting my time on this argument? You haven't provided any real evidence for me to change my view on him. Until you do, you know what I think of this guy. You're putting lipstick on a pig. I'm not going to change my mind about Grant at this moment because Grant has not changed, he has not all of a sudden become a good manager in 3 months otherwise you would have told us what it is he has done to.
Seriously, if we persist with this guy then we will continuously underachieve.
Grant better man than Scolari and Ancelotti? Hahaaa, why was no top club after him then? When Grant left pompey why werent the top clubs begging for his services? Why werent they when he left Chelsea having taken them to a Champions League final all by himself?
As for your paragraph on the how little money Grant's paid for players, most of it you have just decided to write without even knowing whether it is true. Remarkable. Only if Barrera makes the grade? We've paid 4m for him on a four year contract. What are you on about? You didnt help Campbell with the Iraq dossier did you HF? You remember that you said Reid is one for the future, ok? Remember it. It sounds like one of Chandos' comments...he said Noble will be the England captain and a England legend!
ReplyDelete"But do I hear Grant being given any credit? Why aren't his critics offering apologies? Why aren't the Avram detractors praising him for his signings"
Like the ones he made in the summer to keep us from trouble?
"his tactics, the motivation of the team and the results? "
Where was this motivation, these tactics at the start? In fact, where were they when Parker had to do it at half time not so long ago?! Lol. Why have we been looking for coaches left right and center? These are questions you always ignore, and then put the same argument forward, praising Grant again and again.
So why have we been so poor so long then HF? Why did Grant have a whole pre-season with backing in the transfer market, and still not manage to fix things but rather made silly impulse buys like Reid instead of what we needed? Answers?
ReplyDeleteAs for the Hitz and Ba signings (and Bridge and Keane), theyre just evidence of what we could have done much earlier. And we should be honest when we're talking about Hitz and Ba's purchases.
Hitzlsperger was brought in because he was a free, not because they completely knew what they were doing. A hallmark G&S signing. Be honest. He has done well for us so far, better than anyone, including Grant, G&S could have imagined, because he was having a poor time of it at his previous clubs.
G,S and Grant let Ba prostitute himself to other clubs and only bought him when no one else wanted him after he failed a medical at Stoke. We can see how good Ba has been and will be, which makes them letting him offer himself around even more amazing. If they knew he was as good as he has shown us, they would have snapped him up straight away, no question. Another club would not have had a look-in, let alone a chance to do a medical on him. God knows how many good players we let slip because of these morons. It just shows they are not football people.
As for Grant being backed; he has been most of the way. Don't deny this HF, it's silly to do so. He was their man and they have backed him until they tried to sack him having realised what I have been trying to tell you all along. All you do is weaken your argument by making superficial points like that. It shows youre searching, searching for some evidence where there is none.
ReplyDeleteI said a while back on this blog that this would happen. I said results will improve with new acquisitions and people will forget how poor Grant has been (he has been poor in many games, making bad decisions) and will put our good run down to him. It is happening, but after our recent past, we are easily pleased and with cosmetic reasons.
Can you show us evidence of him improving on Mourinho's results? Most importantly, you use the squad inheriting argument to back Grant when it comes to what Zola apparently left him but you ignore it when the subject of Chelsea comes up and what Mourinho left him as a squad? If Grant's slow start was down to Zola's squad, then Grant's success at Chelsea was down to Mourinho's squad. You cannot have it one way and not the other HF.
As for all your cup arguments, Chelsea in the Champs league, Pompey in the FACup and us in the Carling...where has it got us? And if he is such a good manager why only in the cups (where players easily motivate themselves)? Why has he not been doing this in the league? Well? Answers answers.
ReplyDeleteI know you want to prove me and those of a similar opinion wrong. I know you can't wait to do so. But you should wait, wait for when there is good evidence. That time has not come, and it won't, in my opinion.
The most clear argument against you is that even G&S were going to sack him and he was their man! How can you defend him when even the guys that head-hunted him realised how unequipped heis?
Excellent point Sav. We're doing well despite him. Just like HF says we were doing bad not because of him, it is also possible we can do well not because of him. Unfortunately, HF doesn't use his own logic on himself.
But I will not change my mind about him like Sav will if we stay up, because we should stay up. This team should have always stayed up as your pre-season optimism will clearly show you, right HF?
ReplyDeleteNo emotion, no favouritism, just pure rational cold light of day judgement mine is. Anyway, that's my opinion. As it is with HF, I will now be accused of being an anti-semite. Round and round :)
When was the last time the British government done something with honesty, integrity and for the right reasons without any ulterior motives?
Thanks for putting up the blog link HF.
I didn't mean I would change my mind about him really Stani. But I would be so delirious we'd stayed up I'll tell HF anything he wants to hear. Very good comments by the way!
ReplyDeleteDo get a room!
ReplyDeleteSav,
ReplyDeleteI thought so mate...I was surprised you said that to be honest! :) And thanks for the compliment. I do like to answer every one of HF's points, even though he doesnt do the same to us....with good reason ;)
And I didnt know you were so....so, so young! :) Building a good innings there you are. Have respect for your elders HF!
There's a very simple way of answering you Stani. Look at the original article!
ReplyDeleteThere's a simple answer to your weak original article HF, look at my comments.
ReplyDeleteBut your comments are opinions Stani. My article deals with FACTS. One win and Avram equals Zola's points haul in a much more difficult division this season.
ReplyDeleteAnd the majority seem to be more in agreement with my argument than yours Stani.
ReplyDeleteWhat you on about HF? Not only is yours opinion but it is also riddled with falsehoods! Mine is not all opinion.
ReplyDeleteAs for your other statement; you surprise me with the lack of critique applied to the formation of some of your opinions. My retort came quite late, it's obvious many people would not have seen it. Secondly, those on this blog cannot be considered to be a fair representation of the thoughts of West Ham fans. And lastly, do you really think more fans are for Grant than against?
So he's still behind Zola then? Even now? The way you were going on I thought he was the best manager in the world. Much more difficult season? Rubbish. How can it be a much more difficult season when there are more teams in trouble? This makes it easier, easier to get out.
LOL What a stupid, stupid, stupid thing to say! You destroy your credibility in one ludicrous statement Stani. I quote you for all to read! "How can it be a much more difficult season when there are more teams in trouble? This makes it easier, easier to get out." Erm, if 3 teams each collect 21 points, you only need 22 to avoid relegation. If three teams each collect 10 points, you only need 11 to avoid relegation. So, if there are three teams much weaker than the others in the division, it is obviously easier to avoid relegation.
ReplyDeleteLast season, Zola's season, you only needed 31 points to avoid relegation. So we would now be 2 points clear of relegation already, with eight games still to play! We could LOSE OUR LAST 8 GAMES AND STILL SURVIVE!
So, do you want to admit now that your statement, "How can it be a much more difficult season when there are more teams in trouble? This makes it easier, easier to get out" is stupid? Go on, for the first time in your life, admit you are wrong! Three very weak teams, as last year, makes finishing 4th from bottom - which is all that Zola could achieve - so so easy. To finish fourth from bottom this season, a team will need at least 39 points and I suspect even 40 points may not be enough to survive.
Come on then Stani, own up. It is harder to get 40 points than it is to get 31 isn't it? You don't have to be Einstein to work that one out! Carry it to the logical extreme and you could have three teams who finish on 4 points - drawing games with each other and losing all their other games. Then a side would only need to win its games against the relegated teams to be guaranteed survival!
Yep Stani, you have just made yourself look stupid! Well done! I couldn't have done it better myself!!!! ; }
The question is, will you admit to being wrong?
Errm, not quite. In league A there are 4 teams in trouble including yours. In league B there are 8 teams in trouble including yours. 3 teams will go down, so in which league is there a greater chance you will survive in place of another team?
ReplyDelete"Come on then Stani, own up. It is harder to get 40 points than it is to get 31 isn't it? You don't have to be Einstein to work that one out!"
Hahaha. No, the league is easier thats why you can get 40 points. In a harder league, the same effort will get you 31 points (to use your numbers). Do you understand that logic?
And I didnt have to resort to calling you stupid, so dont call me it. Show some class.
So such is your arrogance that you are still not admitting to being wrong? Take it to the logical extreme? It's not easier to beat three teams that are SO weak that EVERY other team beats them? It's not earier to stay up then?
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry Stani, but the definition of stupidity is not being able to understand that your argument is stupid. And your argument is stupid!
Never mind class, learn humility and admit you've made yourself look like a mug!
If there are only 3 weak teams as oppose to 8, it means the rest of the league is stronger because there are more strong teams.
ReplyDeleteNow who is the stupid, arrogant, mug that lacks humility? Let's do a vote on this blog and I bet you'll lose. You know nothing about how I live my life. Dont talk to me about humility, it's laughable....especially when you are your own God. Everything about your life is about self-pleasure, whether it's your eyes, your ears, your stomach or your knob. And I lack humility!? Astonishing
You are still not admitting it! Take the extreme example. Is it easier to avoid relegation if you only have to get 5 points to stay up Stani? Answer that simple question!
ReplyDeleteAnd who says there are eight WEAK teams? What if there are 20 Barcelonas in the division? Three still have to go down. Your argument is so so so stupidly flawed and your refusal to acknowledge it as stupid is crass.
Wolves are a stronger team than last season and are lower in the table. Wigan are a stronger team than last season and are lower in the table. Birmingham are a stronger team than last season and are lower in the table. Blackburn are a stronger team than last season and are lower in the table. Man City are a stronger team than last season. Tottenham are a stronger team than last season. Newcastle and West Brom are stronger than Hull and Burnley. Chelsea, on paper, are stronger than last season. So are Man Utd and Arsenal. Whose player pool was weakened in the close season? Villa's when they lost Milner. Otherwise, who sold players without recruiting stronger replacements? And who lost key players through retirement? Do explain Stani! The Premier League didn't lose a Ronaldo last summer did it?
You may have your head firmly rammed up your arse but everybody else acknowledges that this is a stronger Prem than it was last season. Man Utd brought in Hernandez; Tottenham Van der Vaart and Sandro; Arsenal Chamakh, whilst Wilshire has blossomed; Man City Silva, Toure, Balotteli and Dzeko; Liverpool Meireles, Suarez and Carroll; Chelsea Torres, Benayoun and Luiz; Sunderland Gyan; Stoke Kenwyne Jones and so it goes on. Who retired? Who left the Prem? Ballack. Have I forgotten anybody?
So, teams improve but the division is weaker! Absurd!