The crazy world of Doctor Evil's West Ham Wanderers!
Who are these Klan fools anyway? Fat, sweaty, no-necked racists with nothing better to do than spend their time on a site they hate? Sound like a bunch of childish tossers to me.
A fair description. Sadly West Ham count amongst the fan base some truly deplorable people.
And you wonder why I have not posted on here and the org in months, you are all as bad as each other.
Dutch, if that is really you, welcome. Were you Orange Boy?
Fanny, i wonder what your answer is to the following. You have stated that racist comments are not allowed which is fine, but it is racist, prejudice or discrimination if you state and i roughly quote you in this "i have real problems with my daughter dating a black man, asians are fine, but i would have problems if she were to date a black man". I hope this doesnt get scensored as this is a real topic for debate.
I seem to remember also that you were the one and only one I might add that used words like Wog on the org, can't deny that can you?
I wont delete because I am happy to explain if you are happy to allow the full context. I did say that we are all a product of our upbringing and that I am from the East End, raised by East End parents, who were both racist and within an extended family, all of whom were racists. I made the statement on the org, in a debate on racism, that we are all racists to some extent - love of our own family over others and patriotism are forms of racism in that they are exclusive of others. I am fiercely patriotic when it comes to sport, for example, and will say things like, "I hate the Germans" during a World Cup. I don't hate Germans, I've liked every German I've ever met, but I do hate the German national football team. Your quote is taken out of context slightly. I said that, if I was honest, if my daughter announced she was dating a black guy, a voice inside me would protest because of all the stereotyping which, when it came to my daughter, would ring alarm bells. But I also said that I would not raise an objection to my daughter and would want the guy to prove my ingrained prejudice wrong. (I worked with a Jamaican girl once and she explained the typical Jamaican man's attitude to condoms, namely that they refused to use them. That may have been untrue but I believed it. Obviously that would be a concern to a dad of a teenage daughter!) I am not proud of that cautionary voice but I am honest enough to admit to it. The important thing is that I battle against that ingrained stereotype, that despite that warning voice I treat every individual fairly, as an individual. If my daughter said she was dating a motor cyclist I would have concerns and would tell her not to ride on the back of his bike. I'm a Dad, I worry for my daughter. But I do try to let her make her own decisions and I certainly have tried to raise her so that she sees all races and all people as equal. Is that fair? Or foul?
Seeker of the Truth. No you are wrong. I quoted somebody using the word. That is completely different. I can quote gangsta rappers using the N word, but that would not be me using it, would it?
So would you consider the act in your head to be racist or pre judgemental against black people or is it the same? Why do you think we are ALL racists?
ps love to our families over others and patrionism isnt a form of racism.
For the reason I gave, our fidelity to our family over others and because of patriotism. Is the voice in my head love for my family or a racist voice? Love of my family when it applies to a motor cyclist. If he removes the helmet and I see he is black, does it become racism? I have also revealed on the org that I have been beaten up for defending an Asian friend and risked injury by defending a complete stranger, who was black, against the intimidation of a tatooed Millwall thug in Stockwell. I do not allow racism on here. I campaign against racism. But I would never call myself 100% clean, like a recovering alcoholic never says he is cured. Until we do not even SEE the colour of somebody's skin, we will not be clean of racism. I am honest enough to admit that I am not yet at that point. But I am trying!
PS Patriotism absolutely is racism! By definition it puts one nationality above another! Tebbit summed it up perfectly when he asked the ethnic minorities what cricket team they supported. For him, there was an absolute correlation! Tebbits comments were patriotic AND racist!
Hammersfan: You don't need to defend yourself... I get your point ALL races are racist, i used to work work with Africans and they are more overtly racist than Europeans, saying 'whiteman' etc.... it's sadly part of all cultures, but it's vindictive racism where people say or do things with spite or violence that is unacceptable....
I agree to a certain extent anon, that's why it is ok for Tottenham fans to use the Y word but not for us, and why gangsta types can adopt the N word but we can't use it. But any thought that discriminates or sets people apart by nationality or colour is potentially racist and dangerous.
For your info i am not the same Anon as 20.47. Firstly, i disagree that racism and patriocism is the same. But this is a mute argument as this has never really been defined in official sense. Secondly, do you actually admit you are racist if the motor cycle takes his hat off and he is black? Thirdly, why do you think we are all racists?
Interesting debate and while I think immigration has benefited this country I also think it is now totally out of control. I am horrified to see what has happened to London and other major cities. So many English people have abandoned our once great country and what will it be like for our children and our children s children. Please don't delete this post as I am not trying to be racist but just honest.
It was a metaphor 2055. It is picking up on the parental concerns. Riding bare back in bed and bare back on a bike can be equally lethal. My desire to protect my daughter from ALL potential harm may lead to me feeling prejudiced against a motor cyclist or a Jamaican. Not all motor cyclists are reckless on the road but there is a risk and Dads try to protect daughters from all risk. Does that make sense? Why do I think we are all racist? Because of our love of our family and patriotism. There's a poem called Vultures that says it better than I can. I quote:"Praise bounteousprovidence if you willthat grants even an ogrea tiny glow-wormtenderness encapsulatedin icy caverns of a cruelheart or else despairfor in the very germof that kindred love islodged the perpetuityof evil."
2059, thanks for your contribution. I certainly would not delete it. It expresses the benign racism that is lurking inside so many. (I don't mean that in a nasty way). From memory, this debate was triggered originally by a member of the Klan moaning about how England had gone to the dogs because of immigration. I disagree but I will not censor that opinion if intelligently expressed. Debate is healthy if conducted in an intelligent way.
What i dont get was the comparison towards your daughter dating an Asian or a Black person. Is Asia there is a very high percentage, probably higher than Jamaica of STIs and unwanted pregancies, so why the difference between an Asian or a Black person?
I am a 55 year old man and an active member of the BNP. I have nothing against people from other country's but I am just so upset what has happened to this Country over many years of uncontrolled immigration. I am a church goer and unfortunately still live in the East End. Myself and my family feel like outsiders in our own Country, is that right? My children and my grandchildren have all suffered racist abuse or is it not racist when it is directed at White people? People like you no doubt run down the BNP but for me and many others it is the only party brave enough to rise and defend concerns of thousands. This once great Country is on its knees and I fear for its future.
LOL it is not STIs I was worried about, there's a little thing called pregnancy which would get in the way of A levels and GCSEs. And yes a white or Asian guy can get her pregnant I know. Do you remember the advert for the travel agent? White woman is in a shop looking through a CD rack. It comes up to her chest. A black guy comes in and stands the other side and when he notices the woman, he is embarrassed and says, "Long time no see. How long has it been?" The woman replies, "About nine months" and steps out from behind the counter, hugely pregnant. Then came the strap line, "Time to get out of the country". That was passed and shown on British TV! It is that sort of stereotype that makes a Dad worry. It is wrong but is it any wonder Dads worry when that is passed as an advert for Thomas Cook?
2109, I detest your political party but I cannot deny your right to be a member. I hope you can be convinced by debate that you are wrong but you are entitled to hold your opinions. This is, and must remain, a free country where everybody is entitled to free thought, even when the thoughts abhor us. I would happily sit in a pub with you over a few beers and debate the issue. I would hope that you would extend the same courtesy to an immigrant.
So why would you prefer your daughter to date an Asian guy and not a Black guy?
LOL I don't think I would now. She is almost 20. She is a big girl now. She makes her own calls absolutely. I think I have explained why above. It is down to stereotypes which I admit and know are wrong. That is why I struggle against them but happily admit to my own failings. I am not perfect. Nearly. But not quite! ; }
So, with this in mind would you openly call yourself a racist, albeit a small one?
Hammersfan you say you come from the East End but do you still live there, I doubt you do. As I have said I do and my Grandchildren go to a school where there are hardly any English speaking kids there. The East End was built on immigration but the people who settled wanted to be part of this society unlike the recent inhabitants. As for sharing a pint with people of different races I do and they know my views on immigration and I think they actually understand and sympathize with it.
Here's a question. Is the cartoon above racist? Is it acceptable?
Still in Canada is she, wonder why she left? Was it to get away from you or this country or both?
its not racist it just stereo types the spanish wether thats acceptable or not is in the eye of the reader
Fair enough 2126. No I don't live in the East End any longer. My parents were in the first wave of "White Flight".2125 I am patriotic and love my family. Patriotism and love of your family is a form of racism. On that basis, yes. On that basis that I still can think of a stereotype and be influenced by it. Yes. In the sense that I propagate stereotypes, promote them, celebrate them or base life decisions around them - such as who to employ, who to have as a friend, who I cheer on in Sport - then no. Do you understand the distinction? I will argue against 2126 and the views of his party. I will not allow racism on this site. I strive my hardest not to be influenced by stereotypes. But do I believe all Portugese players are divers and cheats? Sorry, yes I do!
Who is the question aimed at Fanny? I will answer you if you answer mine at 21.25.
Dear God, still operating under KKK and not understanding how inappropriate that is! Yes she is still in Canada, we have just chatted about when she is coming home actually. She left to be with her Canadian boyfriend for a year. They met in Mexico. Fortunately before Swine Flu. She returns to University. Require any more details?
I have 2125, see my reply timed at 2132.
Must have been mis timed. Now you have answered that you are racist, my answer or at least reply to you is irrelevent. I thought that you had stated that you didn't allow any racism on this site but you now openly admit that you are racist, albeit in a tiny way and due to family and Patriotism which you count as racism? What are you opinions on your blog rules?
I do hope that was an Anglo Saxon Canadian.
And why are you allowing an active BNP member a voice? The minute he said he was a member you should have got rid of him.
LOL 2137 because all rules are subject to interpretation.Spike, that is precisely what the BNP want. Deny them a voice and they can justifiably protest. Let their voice be heard and they will, generally speaking, hang themselves. I may not agree with your politics but I will see to defeat you in debate, not through denail. I will ban crude racism, but debates based around immigration and government policy are fine by me. Do you agree with a complete "open door policy"? If not, and very few immigrants themselves do, then you accept that there is a spectrum of opinion on this issue.
Spike he was not allowing me a voice or a platform. I was being honest and trying to explain why I support the BNP. You would be amazed at who supports our party and from what professions they come from. The party is here to stay whether you like it or not.
Do you feel sad that you have an ingrained racial attitude towards certain races, especially Black Jamaicans. What i mean by that is, if your daughter happened to date a Jamaican and it so well happened that you had to have serious surgery and the surgeon was your daughter's father who was cutting you open, do you think that would change your mind?
Christ Fanno not all this crap again, have you not leant anything from the org days, don't feed the trolls.
add into the last statement, boyfriend's in between "daughter's and father"
Do you mean my daughter's boyfriend? Otherwise I would be conducting surgery on myself. would be bloody concerned then!Sorry I think that argument is too contrived to merit discussion. Am I worried if a doctor is treating me is black? Absolutley not! I have been operated on a few times now. The only colour that worries me is the colour red - I don't want it spilling ou of me!
Sorry 2203, I relied before your correction!
So you would have concerns for your daughter dating a Black Jamaican but if he or his father was your surgeon would it be ok? Thats not too contrived?
Anonymous 2203, I have answered your questions honestly. Tell me, why are you hiding behind anonymity? Which orgster are you?
Hold on! There someone here posting as me. Cheeky b'stard! "Don't feed the trolls" has an authentic ring to it. Somebody's been doing their homework lol!
LOL My main concern, black, white, asian whatever would be, are the parents together if it was a serious relationship. Bit sexist by the way, why not make his Mum a hypothetical surgeon?
Anyway Anonymous, I have learned, I have changed. I was wrong! I wouldn't have a problem with it now at all! In fact, I would be delighted. That's the beauty of discussion, you examine yourself and if you are honest about your own failings, you change.
I'm amazed you have taken so long as to ask the question. Have a guess then i'll respond.
Tough one. You seem reasonable so not a paid up member of the Klan. I don't know mate. I would guess Apache but he posts under his name. Do you know who the moron is posting under KKK and other handles?
I'll give you a clue, its not Apache, and i dont know know who KKK is, want another try?
I am honestly more concerned about the white middle class do gooders than the BNP.
Is that a guess or a statement 2222?Why Black Hammer? I am white middle class but from working class roots. Working class attitudes are generally more racist from my experience. Have you found otherwise?
Don't feed the trolls Fanno, can't you see they are getting at you.
It`s a guess
Are there any members of the org you still respect?
Thats loaded question
LOL Den. The debate has been civilised so far. You missed what was going on earlier. Suffice to say, this post was set up because I had to demonstrate that I could block comments. Some are truly revolting people and they feel so brave in their little Klan. I called it exactly right on the org mate, and you know, I think Nev is involved in this. Very sad.
Why don't you look in now and see who is on and posting, just a thought.
would agree with alot of what hammersfan has to say, however i also think that in the ever increasing left wing country we now live in, the whole racism thing has gone crazy...oxford town centre banning "merry christmas" signs last christmas because the council thought it might offend non christians and replacing them with "a season for all" is left wing lunacy in full flight!...multiculturalism in many ways has failed, because it has the opposite effect to what it was supposed to achieve which is ironic, many asian communities are now completely cut off from most other people, with a recent survey in bradford suggesting nearly 50% of locals do not consider themselves british, and would like to live under sharia law...im not a member of any political party or group, im just telling it the way i see it.
The questions aren't on me, as you said this is a blog not a forum so you have to decide.
2227, aimed at me? Of course. 90% are decent West Ham fans.
Interesting Den. robertthehammer and Forest Gate Jase are old friends of course!
2229, racism is on both sides of the "divide" of course and religious sectarianism is very dangerous for any society.
What about your mate OSP?
Immigration has been good on the whole but the rising population of the Muslim society is bad news for all colours and creeds.
Fanny, it is not cowardly at all. Tonight was a demonstration that enables you to think, via routes of cul de sac passes, that you aren't actually a propper racist or even close to it when you really consider who you are. What people don't understand is that you have to go through a thought process to actually analyse it. I believe you have thought about these issues and overcome these problems and i wouldn't want to accredit my name to that. Before you comment at 22.14 i would have reveiled my name, but as i said i won't take credit for it. Why don't you come back onto the Org as a normal person?
Ever read the Qu'ran 2238? I have. It is a fantastic religious book. Islam is not the problem, violent fanatics are!Den, Pete is a mate. I could ring him to ask but I don't need to. Hang on, I'll drop him a text!
No credit to you mate, I reflected long before this debate. So reveal yourself. I don't need to come back to the org, I'm still there. I was on today!
Are you telling me that you are happy with the rise in the Muslim population. because if you are then you are in a group of one. Take it from me Pete is one of them.
You reveal yourself and I promise I will reveal my identity.
After this discussion i would imagine not many people on the Org would have a problem with you and your comments. I think certain peopl had issues with you views on certain racial beliefs. If you put your cards down and say who you are on the Org i will let you know who I am.
You didn't properly reflect until you had this discussion. Hence i dont want ot take credit as you cant admit it, or at least some of it.
Pete is one of them in what sense Den? He is an orgster but he strives, like Banquo, to keep his allegiance clear. 2248 You know who Fanno is. I don't need to know who you are if you choose to hide. You won't be banned either way. Glad you have engaged in debate and kept it decent. Shame others are not up to doing so!
LOL Anonymous, you don't know when I reflected and I now know who you are! That comment was the perfect give away! Anyway, I've enjoyed the discussion.
Den, viz the increase in the Muslim population, I favour a secular society. I see religion as the major cause of hatred in the world - but that is all religions, not one. The Muslims are not at war in Sri Lanka, that is Buddhist against Hindu but there is a big Muslim community on the island.
LOL this has been fun tonight but I am getting bored. You put up this post to demonstrate how you could delete what you wanted. Well Hammersfan I reckon there has been 2 other people in bed with you tonight so see how easy it is to get at you. It is quite compulsive and I see why you made up so many ego's on the org. I did enjoy being Den the best but I must work on my Welsh accent, night pleasant dreams.
Well done if you carried that off. Not that it matters. Debate is debate.
Unfortunately you don't know who I am. I know who you think I am but I am not, try your hardest, have a guess.
Can I have a guess?
LOL I am bored with this now. OK I admit, you are me. It has been fun but I need to go to bed soon. Do you know, I think I may really be going insane! Still, as an exercise in changing grammar and voice it has been entertaining. Now I only have to carry this skill into my writing.
Did you guess KKK?
Funny enough Fanny I have enjoyed it and I am not as bad as you think. The KKK is just a smoking gun to throw you off track. You never know I might sign up as I am starting to warm to you!
Well KKK, did you? ; }
Sign up, but please not with KKK. I genuinely am opposed to all racism and I don't think the handle is in anyway acceptable.
I do know who you are anon and I will send you a smoke signal tomorrow!
Still no basket from KKK?
Can you guess me Anon?
LOL I'll look forward to it! I'm not Apache!
I have no idea KKK, I am not "au fait" and in the know at the mo. Desole mon ami.
i no who your all are
Did you mean KNOW and YOU?
23.16, make my night and tell me who I am?
Goodnyt, I am off to watch the re run of Lost, which i missed the other night.
I no but I wont tell u. ; }
spammers wit no lifes
More debate on this one forum than on the whole board in the org tonight. Self defeating or what?
What is this all about?
Handle...'White, upper middle half working class cockney'Have just read this entire thing and it is both thought provoking and hilarious. Only wish I got to take part. You lot should get together and write a sitcom, seriously, this is the sort of bar room banter Derek and Clive would be proud of!Hammersfan. Gotta say it. The Motorcyclist analogy, you really wanted to make it as plain and pc as you could, I literally nearly woke my family laughing! good job :)p.s Anyway.....Nick a one nil against the car thieving scousers? (no racism intended, perhaps a little, sod it, F' 'em, I mean every word :))p.p.sSo...your daughter twenty you say?
if imigration and nationhood are racict, has any man right over land and relative condition through circumstance (ie being born somewhere else)?i would put forward that to be proud of one's culture is not racistthe divide between land and people is culture. imigration is racist but without checks on it culture will changeeventually culture will change and borders will fall, although its not in the wealthy nations interestthe question is what part of racism is acceptable? is retention or development of culture desirable and is retention or development of culture right?for the record i'm an east ender -1/4 docklands chinese, bit irish, bit scot and the most part english (which is germanic, celtic, french, etc)i'm not racist but my favorite chant is the one about gassing the ... i'm not proud of it but i remember standing in the chicken run giggling my buns off
I'm glad you are not proud of it at least. I recommend a trip to Auschwitz - you will not laugh the next time you hear the chant. Stand inside the trail chamber (which was not destroyed) and imagine for a moment women with babies in arms being gassed. See the Zyclon B pellets, see the human hair, the glasses, the mound of shoes, look into the eyes of the victims pictured on the walls. Anybody who joins that chant should be banned from football grounds for life. It is no laughing matter. End of.
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