It's kind of ironic that this story about BG's financial woes comes out when we face into the biggest game in the history of the club. It's true that a win this Saturday would mean we are odds on for Europe but that's not why. Its true that Rob Green is closing in on the best season by a West Ham keeper in the the last 10 years but that's not it either. In fact it really has nothing to do with us apart from how this game will go down in history.
If we beat Liverpool and ManU win then their title push is over. Now when you look at this in the context of what is going on behind the scenes at Liverpool then you realise why this is more important than other game in the long history of the two clubs.
Liverpool are currently over £350M in debt. That debt was due to be refinanced in January of this year but principle bankers RBS and Wachovia refused to take on the loan for another term. This was partly due to the fact that the club's owners Hicks and Gillett withdrew the assets that had been used to secure the initial loan to buy the Merseysiders. I would point out that this was more likely due to more pressing concerns within their business empire.
There were some stories doing the rounds in January that Keane was sold as it was the only way the club could raise the money to pay the balance on the Torres transfer. These, like all stories that paint the top 4 in a bad light, quickly disappeared.
Some things that were not so easy to hush up are the stories from the States that Hicks recently defaulted on a £10M payment on the loan he took out to buy the Texas Rangers and the Dallas Stars. He has claimed that it was a negotiating tactic with his creditors but it's not one I would recommend you try with your mortgage advisor. It has also recently come out that both Hicks and Gillet are both attempting to sell other assets in the US and some are saying that it is to raise some capital to help refinance the club. Hicks is selling a rodeo he owns in Mesquite Texas to a group of investors headed by Mike McCall. McCall told the Dallas News that the figure was considerably less than the $10M Hicks paid for the rodeo. This seems like a drop in the bucked when compared to LFCs debts. More likely it is being sold to help clear the arrears with his American lenders of the loan for his baseball and ice hockey teams.
When he and Gillet asked for an extension to find new investors or backers for the club they were top of the table, challenging in Europe and in the hunt for the FA cup. With all of these potentially lucrative competitions still a possibility they still couldn't find any new money.
Now with Europe gone, the Premiership hanging by a thread and their owners in the middle of some serious financial issues, a loss to us on Saturday could change the fate of Liverpool Football Club for ever. Any prospective buyer, who refused to meet the half a billion pound asking price when things looked a lot more promising, must now be thinking they can force the owners to sell the club on the cheap. The problem with this is that even if they get the club for a knockdown price they still have to shoulder the £350M debt.
However, if the June deadline to refinance passes without new investment and the club is put into administration, it would cost a good deal less to buy the club. Given the current squad of players at the club a 10 point penalty would not spell disaster for Liverpool. There is no chance of them being relegated and even with a ten point penalty, they could still make a Champions League spot. This may seem cynical but if the new buyers were my clients this is exactly what I would tell them to do.
One thing that is clear is that Liverpool can not continue to meet their operating costs and service the debt their owners have saddled them with.
Submitted by Celtic Hammer.
(The Blog Administrator has accepted this submission in good faith and cannot testify to the veracity of the content.)
110 comments:
your story as always is just speculation mixed with some skewed facts and overly opinionated, utter rubbish, so tell me has swine flu shut down the prem yet like you predicted the other day? thought not...
Also this total prick who writes this crap wont be at the game as usual. What has it got to do with you how liverpool run their club. They are a supreme club with a huge history who are respected around the world and yes im a hammers fan so why do you need to write this speculation and total garbage???? ecome qa real fan and start going to the games and not be a keyboard warrior plank.
Speculative, but enjoyable never the less.
Before we crowe too much, we need to wonder who's most likely to be made insolvent next? Liverpool or us?
celtic can you please answer me this....why are you so intrested in the finances of other clubs, particularly liverpool and spurs....when west ham, your own club are in such bad shape? its really amazing! you post entire essays on liverpool and spurs while your own chairman has debts of 300 mil and the future of your club is very uncertain...looks like straumer are taking over very soon and they are in absolutely no position to put any money into west ham....where is the finance for your "big name players" you spoke of?...id be very worried if i was a west ham fan, and certainly not obsessing on liverpool and tottenham
liverpool's debt is 110 mil. A condition of yanks gettin the club was they couldn't put any more debt than that on the club. Liverpool r in no danger of going into admin.
rubbish, never argue with a fool. if you do he will bring you down to his level, and beat you... as you have done many times.
this blog is a terrible read. on the odd occasion that i chose to have a look i get past the first paragraph and close the window down. if you want a decent hammers blog go to ian dale's west ham til i die...
man utd have more chance of goin into administration than we do with debts close to a billion dollars,thats what the glazers did....we have debts but so dose every top club around the world but ours arnt as bad as whats made out....
this claiming they are sellin of debts and not sorting loans out in the states has no impact on lfc what so ever due to the fact that they created a new company to buy liverpool....
id concentrate on worrying about were your own club will get funds to sercure your top players and bring in new 1s not worrying about our club
This is nerd football at its best.Neither i or anyone else gives a flying f#*k about other clubs, we just care about our own.Give a man some seeds and he will plant a crop, give him a shovel and he will dig a well, give some prick a computer and he will make up rubbish stories while sitting in his grey underpants eating dohnuts.
Celtic hammer your at it again. It was only a fortnight on the same topic remember when you had the beef over liverpool players not waving their fee for the luton town scum and I give you and your deleded buddy a lowdown on Liverpool's finances. Told you mate don't you worry about Liverpool and you keep your eye on your own clubs dodgy bloody dealings ala Shef utd.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2289952/Liverpools-American-duo-tie-up-350m-deal.html
That shows that the figure of £350M is accurate.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jan/05/liverpool-premierleague
goes to show that they had to ask for an extension
Hicks and Gillette have now withdrawn their guarantees and saddled the club with the entire debt.
I do not want to see this happen to a club of Liverpools stature but you can not keep burying your head in the sand and shouting the odds.
celtic do you support west ham? you post more about other clubs, middle east politics, irish history, and football economics (very badly!) than you do issues regarding west ham
What a load of rubbish. Liverpool have lost twice in the league thus far, and made the quarter finals of the CL. We have scored more goals than anyone this season.To say that the club is in financial woes is a joke. The success we have had this season having not lost to any of the top 4 clubs in the league must be making Hammers Fans quake in their boots....Liverpool will win the league...you know its coming mate!
anon 12.16 I will post on anything I see fit, if people choose to read them or not that is up to them. football is a microcosim of life ans as such it relates to a lot of matters.
Anon 12.18 saying you are NOT in serious financial trouble is a joke. You get sod all for reachign the quarter finals of the CL when compared with the rewards for winning it and you will not be winning the league mate. Not any time soon. The title is ManUs no matter what happens in our game this weekend. Given our performaces against the top 4 this year we are not afraid of anyone. In fact but for the width of a post at anfield we would have beaten you lot there.
Go and read the links I posted or simply do some research yourself, I suggest you do a couple of google searches for terms like "Liverpool £350M debt" "liverpool tom hicks" or simply check out any of the liverpool fan sites, at least they are aware of the strife you are in.
no point getting into rows with celtic, particularly about football finance and economics....this is the guy who has been singing the praises of west hams, ex con, corrupt, and completely broke chairman!...as mark twain said "never argue with a fool, people passing by might not be able to tell the difference"
I ahve yet to read a single repsonse telling me I am wrong about Liverpool and be able to back it up.
It really takes something to say "you're wrong coz I want you to be". Believe me in this case I would love to be wrong. I hate to see a proud club with the history of Liverpool in the dire straits they find themselves in. For anyone who thinks this is some grudge against liverpool then go and read the piece I wrote on the anniversary of Hillsborough.
Liverpool are simply the first of the big 4 to find themselves in this position.
Watching Glazier trying to refinance ManU next year will be interesting. Glazier has already shown he is less than confident about secureing the necessary backing and has done a deal with 3 New York based hedge funds, namely Och-Ziff Capital Management Group, Citadel and Perry Capital to take a controlling interest in the club should he fail to refinance the clubs debt, which will have to be significantly increased from its current £650+ million level
celtichammer, liverpool and man united are two of the biggest clubs in world football, they would have a queue a mile long of multi billionaires looking to buy them...they also individually generate massive money as businesses,your logic and argument are fantasy....i seem to recall you suggesting liverpool could go into administration by june, on a previous thread...you live in a make beleive world and i strongly suggest you start taking your medication again.
anon 13.05 if that is true then why had no one made a serious effort to buy Liverpool this year? And why has Glazer had to line up hedgefunds to take over the club if he fails to get the debt refinanced?
actually anon 13.05 I have founf two conflicting dates on when the extension to liverpools debt runs out, some say june 24th some say july 24th so until I can get something from either the club or the banks I can not say for definate which is the case.
celtichammer, it is well documented that liverpool has been the subject of many bids from dubai....if or when the americans at but clubs decide enough is enough, there would be absolutely no shortage of takers...as i said, there would be a queue of billionaires waiting. we are talking of 2 of the worlds biggest clubs with brands that are truely global.
anon 13.19 why would you bother to pay the over inflated price for a debt ridden club when you can force it into administration and pick it up for considerably less?
Celtic
I have been mentioning this for a while now.
It seems amazing that newspapers seem to only focus on West Ham when the state of Liverpool and Man utd's finances in the current climate are more and more perilous.
The papers will wake up to the fact soon and then we will see who has to sell players over the summer!!!
celtichammer, you seem to pay no attention to the fact were not taking about jelly eel eating west ham here, were talking of world super powers in terms of football! the money man united make as a business is huge! there global brand is an investors wet dream! same goes for liverpool...you seem completely out of touch with reality
I haven't read all the comments attributed to this post but in the same way that no one can disagree with Celtic Hammer and back it up, he cannot back his story up anyway. Perhaps there is some truth in the story and there are links to various sites. Liverpool's indebtedness to the banks has been in the media for ages now so nothing new there.
My opinion of Celtic Hammer most of the time is "a little knowledge is dangerous". I am a West Ham fan and no lover of the scousers but they will not be allowed to go bust. They are a great club with a great history. 10 point deduction? Get in the real world Celtic Hammer, you are not in Disney World now.
anon even with new lenders neither liverpool nor manU can evey pay off the debt they have run up. All they can hope to do is to pay the yearly interest on the borrowings.
What part of this can you not understand. The loans are PIK loans which simply means they will never not only be reduced in size but will never ever be paid off.
Hicks sports teams in the US defaulted ont ehir loans as they could not cover their operating cost and pay the interest due on their loans.
Liverpool are dangerously close to being in the same situation and if they default on payments or fail to find new lender they will break FA rules and the punnishment is administraion and a points deduction.
Stop spouting crap you know nothing about, turnover means nothing if you cant meet your running costs
staus
Cheers mate. Its nice to see not everyone is burying their head in the sand
celtic your delusion has reached truely epic proportions....liverpool and man united are in no danger of going bust...but west ham certainly are!....why are you so, so obsessed with this issue? why do you obsess over other teams more than your own?
anon 14.00 again you have nothing to offer but rhetoric and ignorance. If a company can not meet its debt repayments and running costs then are you saying it is solvent? Its not!
Under FA rules any club that goes into administration is to be punnished by a points deduction. If Liverpool fail to attract new buyers or new lenders then they will be in default on the clubs debts and they will be in administration like it or not. What remains to be seen is if the FA have the balls to punnish the big clubs they way they are only too quick to do to the smaller clubs.
For those who do not think this can happen to a club who compete for titles and are regulars in Europe then just look at Leeds! How can people forget the lessons so quickly.
For those who are so keen to tell me I am wrong then please feel free to provide me with proof. Actual proof, not merely misguided belief or blind hope and ignorance.
what i find amusing is that teams in the premiership do not suffer a 10 point deduction from going in to administration, it only applies to teams in the football league, so your whole argument isn't really valid, also you post links backing up facts that everyone knows but then write speculation underneath to make it seem like it is all facts, as i said before you only have to look at your article on swine flu shutting down the prem to see what a joke you are
celtic it os you who is spouting shite! everyone and their dog knows of the glazier situation and the gilette & hicks situation...if they cannot meet the repayments they will sell the clubs, to an awaiting arab billionaire....the funds these two clubs generate is staggering, there would be no shortage of takers, ala man city
What a load of nonsense! Yes the debt is there and maybe under the current climate it's more difficult to re arrange financing but your comments are wide off the mark. Liverpool fc have no shortage of potential investors and people looking at the club, the problem is the owners unable to agree on the way forward for them, Hicks wants to stay in majority or equal control but most investors want total control, until the infighting stops nothing will be resolved.
Celtic you seem to sound like your right on the financial ball and have some sort of insider information, the only
Problem is you base all your "facts" on pure media speculation gathered from the Internet!
Hey I typed in Celtic Hammer into google and it had pages of info stating what a complete moron and useless post writer you are....must be true, it was from google! What a muppet!
anon 14.44 where are all these investors? Why would hicks and gillet be defaulting on other loans and still not willing to sell the club, especially now given that they will not have a single trophy to show for this season or the increased revenue that they bring.
Administration applies to all professional football clubs, it has just been that no premiership team has been put into administration yet.
agreed 14:44......he takes some "facts" from the media then adds his own spin to it which results in essays of pure drivel....if you want a real laugh have alook at the a thread on here in april titled "do to liverpool, arsenal, spurs, mau whats been done to luton"...celtic turned into a hapless one man comedy show after his silly posts where ripped apart and shown to be blatantly untrue! it really is worth a look, its gone down in folklore
Is that what West Ham have been reduced to? Bitter pieces of shite that simply want any other club to fail (and to go out of business no less) simply because they are unable to keep the pace and were fined a few quid for cheating!
Yeah, keep dreaming you claret and blue scum; the only way you'll ever win a thing is if the rest of the Prem goes out of business too.
just how incredibly stupid are the posters on here that they fail to see that the point of this article was to highlight the dangerous situation greedy individuals have put some of our biggest in. It is not a go at liverpool as I have stated and these "facts" are just that facts! go and research for yourselves and if you can find anything other than insults and ignorance to pove me wrong please let me know.
OK I hold my hands up and say I read the article thinking no way are Liverpool going to get a 10 point deduction. However, I realised it was just a headline to capture readers attention and make them post comments. (Celtic Hammer is not the moron when it comes to generating emotional responses!)
I then read some of the many responses and thought many people dont realize the financial trouble Man u and Liverpool (and West Ham) are in at present.
The common response to the article is that Liverpool and Man U are too big to go under...
I agree.
But, they are very close to going into (temporary) administration if new buyers are not found very quickly.
Yes Man U made over GBP60m last season BUT they have to pay over GBP60m in interest alone.
From a pure financial point of view, its a business which isnt working and the lenders will not allow it to continue.
At the time of purchase the American owners thought that Man U and Liverpool were (from a financial view point) under performing assets. They thought they could but them, increase prices and cash in on expanding global tv rights. Then came the global meltdown.
Credit in the US has dried up to the extent that banks wont lend to successful business models like McDonalds.
Wachovia Bank,mentioned somewhere on this page, as one of the loan holders, went bankrupt last year and their new owners are looking to get ride of bad debts - they dont want non performing businesses on their books and it doesnt matter if you are Man U or Liverpool to them its a sport they have no interest in - they just want their money and if they have to force a cut price sale to get what they are owed they will.
Yes there will be people lining up to buy them but the number of possible owners has reduced as new owner is likely to have to finance the deal themselves - that is why Middle East owners are linked as potential buyers.
anon 15.49 thanks for the input mate. I dont actually write the headlines, Hammerfan does. Its funny though how many people jsut read the headline and comment without reading the article itself.
Thanks for your points I found them interesting and only wish others took the time to read the piece and then research it before responding to it.
If every club is hoping for a middle eastern buyer pretty soon we can dispense with Sky Sports News as the teams will simply be announced from the top of a mosque before friday prayers!
Hang on, I'm not having that!
I quote, "However, if the June deadline to refinance passes without new investment and the club is put into administration, it would cost a good deal less to buy the club. Given the current squad of players at the club a 10 point penalty would not spell disaster for Liverpool. There is no chance of them being relegated and even with a ten point penalty, they could still make a Champions League spot. This may seem cynical but if the new buyers were my clients this is exactly what I would tell them to do."
The headline was inspired by that!
0819, I didn't write it you ill mannered moron.
hammersfan calm down mate you can hardly cry innocent on chosing a headline that is likely to generate the most interest. Its what good editors do.
I am not backtracking on the claim that Liverpool could face a possible points deduction if they go into administration but of everything contained in the piece that claim would make the most eye catching headling.
I am also not having a go, if anything I took the poster to be saying that it was a savvy piece of marketing to attract people with an attention grabbing headline and I wanted him to know that any credit was due to you.
Its ok Celtic mate, I still have my hair on. Just thought the editor needed to justify an editorial decision!
Liverpool are not about to go into administration. The owners refused to sell the club at a 75m profit six months ago. The only reasonable explanation for this decision is that they thought the club was worth more. The fact that they are selling their other assetts but keeping Liverpool also points to the financial viablity of the club. Well done for gathering so much attention with so little fact.
anon 18.23 liverpools owner tom hicks is selling assets in the uk at a loss from what he paid for them. If he could get a nice big profit from a club that have won nothing this season do you not think he would take it?
everytime you're saying we won nothing but what haswest ham won nothing and not in danger of winning anything!liverpool may have prob but we'll get out of it worry about your shit club!
anon 19.01 we are not the ones saddled with £350M of debt that we cant finance.
Simply put, I don't think this is a case of my club is better than your club, from reading the article alot of the info are from other media sources which are normally always exaggerated, just like the headline was to attract traffic to their website/article, it's simple a spin all journalists use.
You can not fully believe all you read, what I will say is that LFC are not in any problem as a club, Hicks and Gillet got greedy & before the global meltdown was taking effect thought they could make some money! This situation is best for an investor (like most Arab firms) as they can get the club at cheap, if the Americans are unable to refinance, which unless they sell other assets (at a loss or not) may well happen I'm sure they will look to selling up ASAP than risking going into Administration and losing money already invested!
Celtic Hammer I think alot of what your saying is based on ifs and buts rather than actual current facts! If any of what you say materialises, credit to ya, but I very seriously do doubt that!
celtichammer is a joke...his reputation is now all over the net...what a fool...he prints pure lies and now this blog is known as pure comedy factor! if anyone thinks in lying please refer to "arsenal, man u, liverpool, chelsea, spurs get done to them whas happened to luton" an april thread...celtichammer is a joker, please everyone check this thread...you will never take him seriously again
CelticHammer, you are confusing two issues. Liverpool have generated enormous revenue this season from TV, marketing, sponsorship and prize money whether they have won trophies or not. This is because they are an enormously popular global sport franchise. That is why international class sporting and business magnates are trading in clubs of similar stature but ignoring others. (Even if they do regularly win pieces of meaningless silverware in tinpot leagues).
Celtic Hammer you said earlier "liverpools owner tom hicks is selling assets in the uk at a loss from what he paid for them", perhaps you could tell me which UK assetts Tom Hicks has sold at a loss?
The truth of the matter is that really Celtic Hammer doesn't have any more idea than the rest of us what is going on. Well written drivel as is the Daily Mail. We could all write stuff like this if we thought it through. I am sure that he does research a lot of the stuff but frankly, who cares?
If anyone seriously thinks that if we beat Liverpool at the weekend then it will push them into administration then they are even more deluded than Celtic Hammer.
My suggestion is that he changes his medication and put his not inconsiderable literary skills to writing about what we all relate to - football!!
anon 20.04 I am big enough to admit that was a typo on my part, if you review the original article you will see it is his rodeo in texas I was talkin about but thanks for being so pedantic.
anon 19.57 if liverpool are generating so much money why can they not afford to refinance their debt? remember they are currently paying £30m a year in interest payments which dont make any cnotribution to the principle.
CelticHammer take a look at your keyboard, the S and the K are at opposite ends, this was not a typo, it was an error of fact. According to the Forbes list for April 2009 Liverpool are the current fifth largest club in the world in terms of value and revenue. Total value $1.010b, total annual revenue $330m. If ANNUAL revenue is 1100% of debt repayment and 97% of total debt burden this makes LFC one of the most attractive businesses in the world right now, which explains why billionaire businessmen from all over the middle east are preparing bids. Forgive me if I trust their judgement over that of a semi literate adolescent with a grudge.
Celtic Hammer, just to reinforce the point, Deloitte, football money league confirms that Liverpool have risen from 10th to seventh between 2005-2008 in the football rich list with revenues increased by over fourty million euros over that period. 2009 figures have not been released but if they concur with Forbes list they will report a rise to fifth and an increase in revenue which is the largest in the history of the club. These results have been achieved in an outdated stadium during a global recession. With advanced plans for a new stadium expected to triple matchday revenues it's difficult to agree with your view of Liverpool as a club in decline.
As a Liverpool fan I would be a little dissappointed if there were any literature on Liverpool being finantially stable. The illusion of finantial instability has been allowed to develop so as not to inflate transfer fees. Look at how United (£30 million for Tevez or Hargreaves) and Chelsea (£30 miilion pound players like Sheva, Drogba and Essien.
Finantial health is a closely guarded secret but the clues are there; turnover, transfers etc. If you can't make a finantial case for the best team in Europe (fact: eufa seedings)every team should worry.
Opinion: Liverpool's net spend next season will be in excess of £40 million.
You'll never walk alone.
The facts in this article seem accurate although comparing liverpool to leeds is silly given the difference in revenue generated. liverpool is a global brand. its very unlikely that livrpool will go into administration but at the same time its still possible. i have read every reply to this story and each one says the same thing from both anonymouse and celtichammer
so Tom hicks is playing brinkmanship with the clubs very existence to keep transfer fees down! that is laughable. I suppose he defaulted on his loans in the US so he could pick up a full back on the cheap! haha
Read the original article I wrote and you will see that I was talking about hicks selling US assets. If the only defense you have is being pedantic it pretty much sums up your argument.
The facts are simple and have been reported by Reuters, The AP and other news agencies.
If liverpool are the prize investment some deluded souls think then why can they not get someone to take on their clubs debts or meet the purchase price.
what a f!"*$%"g brick, we will still finish 40 points clear of your shit team if we ever were deducted points. And that will only happen if the FA link with F1 and punish the top four to make the premiership more even.
The loans he defaulted on have no link to LFC, it's with regards to his 2 US franchises!
He is trying to play a clever game by forcing banks to re-negotiate and this may well work, but it might not. Suggestions have been made that part reason is to enable them to re-negotiate the LFC loan and use money from possible sales and investments and what they have under his HSG umbrella to help ease the loan!
This man is in no way cash poor, with regards to his shares in LFC he has used little of his own personal wealth and assets in all his other companies (not including the Dallas teams he has)
As I said this guy is smart in business, I'm not sure he is doing best for Liverpool in general with the way he is doing his business but I very highly doubt any trouble would come to Liverpool in terms of administration and such. He is holding out for good money but is playing a risky game! If the refinance package is not agreed on then he will be forced to sell and less on his terms, but the only way Liverpool will make a serious return is I and when the new stadium is built.
Celtic Hammer you seem to be focusing all your attention just on the numbers and speculate too much to take what you say as gospel. As I said it's not the best of situations to be in but your train of thought my friend is overly exaggerated.
Celtic Hammer, are the compilers of Forbes list and Deloitte's rich list 'deluded souls'? You still haven't answered the basic flaw in your argument: Liverpool's overall value, revenue, market share and profits are rising year on year. The fact that Hicks and Gillette are selling their North American assets so that they can keep hold of Liverpool FC should tell you all you need to know. The expansion of global broadband coverage and high speed streaming will allow global brands like LFC to either sell millions of online season tickets to to fans all over the world or extract more value from existing TV contracts. As our American owners might say, you do the math.
23.05 you dont default on a loan as a negoiating tactic as it adversely affects your credit rating. Hicks is not cash rich, in fact he is far from it. Instead of paying the $10M owed on the loan he said he would make up any money that the sports teams needed to operate, which is a fraction of the amount he couldnt pay the banks.
He saddled liverpool with the entire cost of buying the club and now can not another back to take on the loans?
How is any of this the work of a good business man or someone in complete control of the situation.
At least BG ensured that WestHam would not be affected by anything that happened to him or his other businesses. thats what a good chairman does.
Hicks and Gillette slag each other off in the press, turn on the manage or the CEO, interview people to take over the managers job, and refuse to be in the same room together! All that shows is a complete lack of concern for the club and nothin but contempt for the fans
celtichammer is so far removed from the truth its scary....he is bringing this blog into complete disripute and i urge hammersfan as the administrator to take action
Celtic Hammer so now your contention that Liverpool are bust has been shredded you have turned to attacking the motives of the owners. Well guess what genius we already know they are souless profiteers out to make money. That's the whole reason your article is nonsense. These are bloodless money men who will turn Liverpool into a corporate cash generator. As I've already said the independent experts testify to our off field profitability and success. You fool yourself if you believe that an Icelandic biscuit magnate is any less cynical or any more competent.
anon 23.34 let me tell you about figures that do matter. for the year ending 31st of July the clubs accounts show a LOSS of £33M for the year. It also lists the debts as £350M as well as a further loan of £64M from Kop Football Holdings which is the company that owns the club. So Hicks and Gillette are charging the club for them buying it! Its unbelievable to be honest. They both took more than £1.4M in personal expenses in the 7months since the bought the club.
Does any of this sound like they have the best interests of the club at heart?
These losses will INCREASE for last year and given the fact that they are now paying higher interest and charges for the extension to the loan that their current backers will not renew.
here mate since you probably dont know how to get a set of accounts from companies house feel free to read this report which summarises the clubs finances in the LIVERPOOLecho.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2008/06/09/liverpool-fc-accounts-show-33m-loss-100252-21044784/
Remember that their serious player spending didnt kick in till after these accounts were published.
BG realised quickly that any club with a capacity of 50k could simply not buy their way into competing with the ManUs and Chelskis of this world and decided WestHam were better served by having the club turned into a self financing, sustainable club that fully utilised its youth set up to help build the squad. Who was the last young player Liverpool produced.
None of my anger is aimed at Liverpool FC or its fans but rather at its owners and the FA and Premier League who let this situation come about.
The danger facing Liverpool is real and its very serious. For all the talk of ques of millionaires from the middle east anxious to get their cheque books out take a look at Newcastle. A club with a super stadium, fan base, international standing and considerably lower debts than Liverpool, an owner actively trying to sell for a price a damn site lower than Hicks and Gillette are demanding and no one stepped up and bought them.
From a business stand point Newcastle represent an infinately better business proposition than Liverpool and they were withdrawn from sale.
Wake up mate.
anon 23.42 would you like to tell me what independend experts testify to your off field profitability when the clubs own accounts show you are making a loss! You muppet! You talk about my credibility? You string the only 3 big words you know together in a sentence and then nearly break your arm patting yourself on the back. read the report on the accounts the club filed with companies house, or get the damn accounts yourself. Liverpool are very very far from financially secure
im calling foe celtichammer to be banned from this blog....his articles are pure fabrication and have the sole intention of drawing hits from newsnow......hammersfan have you any decency? ban this fool
anon 00.03 so I fabricated Liverpools accounts did I? Well you rumbled me mate. I masqueraded as a scouse accountant, thats like a regular accountant but you need an unfortunate forward hairline, a leather tie and make sure that nothing you do endangers your clients giro!
I am also the one who cancelled Star Trek, that was me on the grassy knoll and I am the one who keeps finding TV work for Piers Morgan.
I would like to correct my post of 23.50 I meant to say that BG realised that any club with a capacity of less than 50K! sorry about the confusion, I hope it makes more sense now
Well well we are excited aren't we. Your financial acumen is somewhat lacking if you believe Newcastle United to be an "infinately better business proposition than Liverpool", (by the way there is no a in infinitely). Newcastle have a listed value some $715m less than Liverpool and a revenue some $134m less. They face dramatically reduced revenue on relegation with no known contingencies. Their global profile is a fraction of Liverpools'.
Celtic Hammer let me put this as simply as possible to you. All well informed reds hate Gillette and Hicks. We all know that they have loaded a large portion of the purchase debt on to the club and are using the revenue generated by the club to pay the interest on the loan. Whilst these factors place unwanted financial constraints on the club they are also testament to the massive revenues the club is able to generate. These two fatcats are only able to run this scam because the club is an iconic and uniquely successful sporting brand. It is not a moribund enterprise. If it were then these shysters would never have become involved. They will sell us off and ride away into the sunset with pockets full of our cash. Thankfully the credit crunch means that this will be sooner rather than later because their hand is being forced by the tightening of corporate lending practices. Having said all of this the basic premise of your article is wrong. Liverpool are not about to go bust.
I do not know if Celtic is right or wrong but taking his research at face value and assuming it is accurate then LFC seem to have cash flow problems at least. As for those whose only answer appears to be that we are a big club and WHU is sh1t is hardly addressing the issue and are also making themselves seem stupid.
anon 00.17 thats for proving my point, Newcastle have a reported value of a quarter of that of liverpool with revenues of more than half of them. You see now why they are a good option? Whoever buys liverpool has to take on over £400M in debt as well as funding a new stadium. Even relegated Newcastle will pack St James park and remain a better buy for anyone wanting a football club. Thanks for the spell check, unfortunately I am a child of the Word generation so I never bother to check my spelling. Even professionally I have someone to do that for me as my clients dont hire me to spell for them!
Anon 00.42 Hicks and Gillette have loaded the club with all the debt from the purchase plus a good deal more since and have removed their assets which had been part of the guarantee structure.
right now the only way Liverpool will refinance is to sign over Anfield as security.
Let me tell you something abuot global profile, its about as dependable as the breeze, a team drops out of the top 4 and their media and image rights go through the floor, the team that replaces them doubles its media rights value at the end of the season. Liverpool have a trophyless season and their global brand value takes a hammering. That said they are probably the lowest valued club in the top 4 based on far eastern image rights, they dont have a global sponsor like Arsenal and ManU or a massive far eastern sposnsor like chelski.
celtic is a complete buffoon...he uses 5% fact and 95% spin ....im calling once again on hammersfan to ban this fool as he is doing this blog far more damage than good......his posts are now going down in folklore if you go back to earlier posts you will see what i mean...he is a compulsive lier and fabricator. his posts are so far removed from reality it is laughable. i am calling on the administrator to ban celtichammer as his posts are causing unrest and deliberate trouble....does anyone in their right mind beleive man u and liverpool are about to go into admin?....hammersfan please please find the courage to ban celtichammer and this blog will improve...fail to block celtic and it will br regarded as an object of ridicule
Relegated Newcastle will not pack St James' Park. Premiership Newcastle do not always pack St James' Park and pre premiership Newcastle often struggled to get 20,000 in there. You are a child of the word generation and a fan of the Sky generation. Liverpool have been competing on or around the pinnacle of English football for over three decades yet they are the single most underexploited brand in European Football. They are the only English team with the tradition and fanbase to begin to challenge Man Utd and when the Americans eventually take their profit whoever invests in the new stadium and the emerging markets will have a monster on their hands.
By the way Newcastle's value was determined at the start of this season when they were expected to finish near a European spot, it will have sank faster than a metal turd by now. Liverpool on the other hand may still finish as premier league winners and will enjoy bumber prize money from a champions league quarter final berth. After the sales of Keane, Crouch et al their transfer dealings for the year are in profit. I hope your 'clients' have someone else to their maths as well as their spelling.
Why call for celtic to be banned ?. Isnt any forum about opposing points of view. There are some right idiots on here who do not appear able to post a constructive comment but i dont want them banned.
I suspect a certain last minute screamer from Steven Gerard may be at the root of CelticHammer's anti Liverpool angst. Still hurt does it? Go on, flood your fears...take a look...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWlsWbPhS3M
Take a bow son, take a bow.
The WHU v LFC is history now so it hardly matters however i will ask one question "if WHU kick a ball out of play for an injured player do you think it is sporting behaviour to throw the ball to a WHU player in our penalty box rather than behind the goal line for a goal kick"
As I recall Hamman passed it into West Ham territory, Scaloni fluffed a clearance, then Gabbidon fluffed a clearance then Gerard scored one of the reatest goals in cup final history. And no I don't think Hamman should have passed the ball out of play because that would have wasted time and killed the game, he surrendered possession and your player surrendered it back.
Well thats one point of view i suppose, imo it was unsporting conduct.
On another subject i heard a phone in where a Tranmere supporter from Birkenhead was called a scouser and he was most upset claiming he was not a scouser it was considered an insult to people from the otherside of the river if this correct.
The purpose of returning the ball to the opposition in such a circumstance is to restart play in a contest similar to that which apertained before the ball was put out. The ball was not dead when Scaloni put it out therefore Hamman was correct to put it back in play. Scaloni could have put it out himself if he had wanted. He didn't, end of history lesson.
Then why is it normal to throw the ball to the keeper following an injury. not a history lesson more a comment on LFC sporting ethics.
Even older history. In the 198o's WHU along with other clubs were unable to play in Europe due to LFC fans at Heysel do you think it would be fair that WHU and others take LFC's Euro places in compensation, after all it was all LFC fans fault that people died and English clubs were banned from Europe
I would like anyone to tell me where I have lied in this article, just because you really really wish they were lies doesnt mean they.
Once again I am not having a go at Liverpool Football Club or its fans, but rather their owners. Although the attitude of some of the posters on here is a little petty, would that they directed such anger at the men who caused this instead of me. Still its not as bad as those deluded few who think everything is rosey at Anfield.
Either way to coin a phrase "Dont shoot the messenger!"
The Heysel disaster is an infamous stain on the name of Liverpool and one which we should never forget.The ban was extended to all English clubs because many English clubs were involved in numerous stadium riots in the period leading up to Heysel and it was only by the bravery of the police and sheer good fortune that many similar disasters did not occur. Walk into any book store and you will see several books celebrating the antics of hooligans including West Ham's notoriously violent firm. In the same year that the Heysel Stadium disaster occured West Ham Fans were involved in a soccer riot aboard a cross channel ferry. The plan had been to travel to Holland for a ruck with a rival hooligan firm, however the fighting broke out on board the ferry. The captain of the vessel was so alarmed at the extent of the damage that he turned the vessel around and returned to port to prevent catastrophe. There were over thirty stabbings on the ferry that afternoon. When you use the death of 39 innocent people as a cheap point scoring tactic in an argument you betray your ignorance of the facts.
No-one has said that everything is rosey. Liverpool fans are nothing if not pragmatic. The point is that your article suggests we may be days from financial melt down and you are clearly, patently, absurdly wrong. Admit it. Having said this you are not guilty of lying and anyone who suggests you should be banned is far too precious to be exchanging views in any forum.
" The problem with this is that even if they get the club for a knockdown price they still have to shoulder the £350M debt."
What a clueless shitehead who wrote this crap !
Any prospective buyer will not shoulder the 350m loan, the investment amount will cover that loan.
No one will pay 350m+500m for any club in this world, not even ManU
Liverpool fans clearly have very bad memories! Scaloni put the ball into touch because a Liverpool player was injured. The ball was then thrown to Scaloni and, on the orders of Carragher (he admits to it), the right back was "pressed" into a hurried clearance. It went to Gerrard and was smashed into the net. The ball should have been thrown out for a goal kick. It was an act of appalling gamesmanship, akin to waiting for somebody to park his car, then stealing his wheels. Hang on, it's Liverpool, what am I thinking of?
Brian, the debt has to be covered unless the business goes into receivership. I think that's the point of the article. As you rightly say, NOBODY will pay that much for the club!
This is scanlen - your old nemesis from another forum. I enjoyed this post celtichammer, it gave me a laugh. I know you as a zealot and zealots are never wrong are they? Although Liverpool are in financial difficulty to suggest they might take a 10 point deduction if we beat them is a bit far-fetched? For a start, going into administration means Gillet & Hicks giving up their ownership rights and having to compete with others to buy them back. The banks would then pursue Gillet & Hicks for the assets secured against the loans and they will lose out big time. It won't happen. It's funny though that the signs of doom and gloom you see hanging over Liverpool were similar to those I saw hanging over West Ham and have now largely been proven correct. You always eulogised Bjorgolfur Gudmundsson's ownership when I argued the opposite case. I remember well that you rubbished and insulted me because BG was a billionaire and losing £250m when Landsbanki went pop meant he still had £750m! Then it was BG is getting a group of investors together using West Ham as a key to re-financing his business interests. Then as more of his businesses went under his son was going to come to the rescue and invest in West Ham. Then his sone lost his bank and it became - Actavis is for sale at €7bn and that will be where the windfall comes from. Only it turned out Actavis was heavily in debt for €4.5bn and they never got an offer that cleared the debts! Then it became obvious that what I had consistently said had happened despite all your abusive rubbishing of my posts. So frankly, your forecasts for Liverpool should be taken with a massive pinch of salt. They stopped your abusive rubbish on TeamTalk by stopping your posts so you drift over here to spout your nonsense in searching for approval from someone or something. Like all zealots, you are a danger to yourself pal. Get some medical help before it's too late.
scanlen its nice to know you continue to enjoy my posts, its funny however that you didnt respond when I asked how come bright-jones solicitors in Toulous have no record of any british national called Scanlen buying a home in france in the last 5years. According to yourself you "retired" to france with your millions 3years ago and bought a property there.
As for hicks and gillette they removed their assets which had been acting as security against liverpools loans last year, yet again your informant was wrong about that. Not surprising really since the guy slips in and out of existence on a regular basis.
Comparing Liverpool to WestHam just shows your startling lack of knowledge for someone who claims to have been the CEO of a PLC, or was it the director of the marketing department of a plc, or was it not a plc but rather a company that was kind of like a plc (am only guessing thats like the company verion of one of those dairy spreads sort of "I cant believe its not public!") but you were not the CEO but head of some part of the company that was involved in an MBO, after which you became a tax exile, or not a tax exile but an investor in European property who dumped his cash in before the collapse, the only thing that seems certain is that for reasons which continue to baffle me you, being a millionaire and all, have been unable to take a ferry or catch a cheap flight to Engalnd to watch you're beloved Hammers for more than 3years!
Even on Teamtalk no one likes you or wants your opinions, I gave you an offer, which you refused, that we would allow the posters on there to decide who should leave the site and who should stay and you recieved not one solitary single vote for you to stay. Thats gotta hurt, to know that absolutely no one, wants you or values your input. You're only response is to say that everyone on the site is actually me in disguise.
Do yourself a favour and dont embarrass yourself on another site. Last thing you want is for people on this site to know you're the sort of snivelling, deluded, little grass who emailed the editor of TeamTalk numerous times to have me banned from the site, even he didnt take notice of you! Do you ever wonder if you even exist?
As a couple of people have already pointed out on here there is no point arguing with an imbecile - they only drag you down to their level.
scanlen
scanlen I was witing for your response I was especially hoping you would address the point I made in the opening paragraphe of the post responding to you earlier. Thats the second time I have asked you and you have failed to answer.
celtichammer, why am i not surprised you have enemies everywhere!...what really annoys people is the way you revert to insults so easily, and everyone should take you word as complete gospel and if anyone dare question it they are a fool, or moron etc etc...this was clearly illustrated on the thread "BG the case against"...the author of that article put together a very decent argument, yet within one or two posts it was buisness as usual from celtichammer and his insults...thats why when you where completely destroyed on "do to liverpool, man u, arsenal, spurs whats been done to luton" it was so funny, as you where ridiculed and whipped from one poster to another, in a case of truely tasting your own medicine !....so scanlan has my vote whoever he is! celtichammer to be banashed to the cyber wilderness.
1359, Celtic is certainly combative in debate and is a persistent pheasant plucker, but I think he generally stays the right side of the line. That said Celtic, I can't see what Scanlen's living arrangements have to do with anything. Stick to the topic under debate eh? I went to a school with a guy called Simon Hiscock (I never got close to confirm whether or not it did but it certainly wasn't Pythonesque in size!) who, when he started losing an argument, would say something like, "Well you've got a big nose"; I've felt utter contempt for anybody who has resorted to that sort of tactic ever since!
Uniformed drivel.
Hammersfan, Scanlen's a regular poster on Teamtalk who has been called "obsessed" by many posters in his attempts to prove me wrong.
He has told everyone on the site that his knowledge of business is based on the fact that he is a retired millionaire tax exile who lives near brad and angelina in france.
I just find it curious that a search of the land registry in France shows no record of any British national called scanlen buying a property in France when he said he did.
I am also waiting for someone to show me a different set of accoutns for Liverpool Football Club or to show me proof that I am wrong about the level of debt the club have.
celtic you went to the extreme of searching land owners in the south of france to try locate him? and you say he is obsessed lol..maybe he isnt called scanlen, and thats just a name he uses online....why did you go to that complete extreme you dr. hannibal lecture-esque nutcase!
celtic what i recommend for you is a regular dose of lithium, as anti psychotic drugs go they have there fair share of side effects, but in your case that is only a small detail to worry about! i better stop posting here, you probably already have my computer i.d and will trace me...i will probably awake one nite to find you absailing down the side of my apartment block, bourne supremacy stylie
scanlen here for one last laugh celtichammer. I posted several points that you decided not to answer and what do you respond with? You respond with playground taunts and frankly mate, I'm not joking when I said you need psychiatric help because you clearly do. You have a serious mental problem and it becomes apparent every time I prove you wrong.
Take a look at your post. You admit that you contacted Bright-Jones lawyers in Toulouse France to track me down? My screen name is quite different from my real name - surprise, surprise Celtic yet you call me a muppet?!!! I am actually a client of Bright-Jones Montauban office if that helps you find me but hey - you're full of sh!t. But even if you do find me, so what? Are you going to come axing down my door with a Jack Nicholson grin and say "celtic's here!"
That's playground stuff and merely a red herring to avoid the stark reality that you are a fool who cannot differentiate between real life and forum life. We both support West Ham. You were wrong about BG and I was right. So what? It doesn't matter. It makes no difference yet you take it personally because you've been bettered! What kind of sick mind is that?
You were wrong when you said - 1)Liverpool could go into administration. 2) You were wrong when you said BG still had £750m. 3) You were wrong when you said BG would bring investors into his businesses to avoid having to sell us. 4) You were wrong when you said his son Thor would come to his rescue. 5) You were wrong when you said Actavis would be sold for €8billion to provide funds to pay off BG's debts. 6) In fact I can't remember a time you've actually been right. You even lied about BG's criminal record for fraud - 5 counts of minor book keeping offences. Yes and you believe people believe that? Now BG has owned up to being bankrupt owing £300m and some experts think that is an understatement. He was supposedly a dollar billionaire ($1.1bn) which equated to about £600m yet he owns up to being £300m in debt. That's at least £900m lost and you reckon he's a good chairman? Don't make me laugh any more I can't stand it!
If you had a professional mind as you claim, then you would have kept quiet or apologised but you just keep digging old son. It does your credibility harm - not mine!If your supposed clients knew who celtichammer is, you wouldn't have any clients. If you can't spot a poor chairman of West Ham but have the front to say Gillet & Hicks are running the risk of putting Liverpool into administration then then you clearly are delude and not really a financial analyst.
Scanlen I got bored really quickly by your response so I thought I would ask so which bit were you lying about? The bit where you said you were a retired millionaire living in france or that your name is Scanlen and your family hail originally from Co. Cork near Kinsale, where you claimed to have many surving relatives also called Scanlen? Make your mind up! Which bit were you lying about! When you let me know which it was you lied about I will happily reply to your post!
Hurry up now, scramble around to try and remember which bit you lied about!
Oh and by the way I contact Bright-Jones as I am thinking of buying a property in the south of france. I have been having a look about and there are some very good deals to be had there, when they explained to me how the property system in France worked with regard to registering properties sold to foreigners I figured it would be easy to see if you really did live there and it turns out you dont, either that or you were lying on a different occasion. It is so hard to keep track of your lies
Celtic mate, this is getting too personal. If "Scanlen" is a real name, let it be, our virtual identities are separate from our real identities. I fell out with people at the org because they confused virtual life with real life. Football debate is meant to be fun, not life and death!
celtic this is a football blog...we all come here and have abit of banter, log off and forget....but you question solicitors about whether another poster had properties in france? your clearly a very disturbed fella. very disturbed....you from the inside looking out cant see it though.
Hammersfan if someone wants to make a name for himself by trying to pick the most pedantic of points (such as spelling and grammar on occassion) and beat me over the head with them thats one thing, when they insult me personally and professionally thats another.
That is crossing the line as far as I am concerned and I will react appropriately. One of the reasons clients hire my is this persistent streak, much of my work involves reviewing projects and proposals that my clients are interested in and I have a reputation for taking promoters apart if I think they are being less than forthcoming about a deal.
If I am like this for fun on website just imagine how much worse I am when I am being paid for it.
I have given Scanlen the option on more than one occassion to drop his pathetic little crusade against me and he has always started it up again. Its like getting pecked to death by ducks and eventually if someone is too stupid to head a warning then he is going to end up regretting it.
As for the property search in France, it doesnt end there mate. I also intend to check records for any PLC management buy out involving a company director by the name Scanlen in the London area for the last 5 years, seeing as he has claimed to be a tax exile who for some reason is unable to return to the UK I am pretty sure I should be able to pull some info from the Inland Revenue. Thats if the guy exists, if he doesnt at least I will be able to show that he is nothing more than a liar and a sad Walter Mitty character.
Let it go, let it go! Dear God, I'm beginning to think you are a Fanno alter ego. Too much intensity mate. Leave Scanlen be, it isn't woth this angst!
celtic, there is being persistent and there is schizoprehnia.....you clearly suffer from the latter.
You sick man,see a doctor quickly.
Celtic Hammer, you really are something else. I have read a lot of the posts but have got bored. It is not often that I agree with the author of this site but this time he is 100% right. You are making it personal and by doing so are amusing everyone including no doubt the infamous Scanlen. Your posts are partially correct, partially researched, and spun out to what you want them to be. That is not only my opinion but that of many others. Your use of the English language is truly dreadful for such an "educated" and professional person.
You are capable of writing good, unbiased articles. However you spoil yourself by reacting to any remark that is seen as criticism. Grow up mate and get a life.
Finally, I cannot imagine that anyone would want to hire you in a professional manner if this is how you react under provocation.
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