The powers that be in the FA, Football League and Premier League continue to mismanage the game at all levels. What was done to Luton was a disgrace and in viewing their relegation, many fans will fail to see the herculean effort they put in to defy overwhelming odds.
From the time the Liverpool players shamefully refused to waive their match fees, Luton were on the slippery slope to non-league football. At least in their new owners they have ensured that they will continue to exist as a football club.
Rather than simply punishing these clubs the FA must work with them to avoid such problems in the first place. A mandatory set of add on clauses for any player who graduates from a club's academy would be a start. Too many young players are being tempted to the likes of Arsenal, Spurs or Chelski at 16 or 17 and the clubs who worked with them from the age of 10 or 11 are left with nothing.
Any Premiership club drawn against a team for a league lower than the championship should be made to waive their match fees and TV money for away cup ties.
A levy should be placed on all players salaries of 1% to help establish a fund to pay players from clubs who are struggling to stay afloat provided that the club didn't get into trouble through financial irregularities or blatant mismanagement. One of the biggest factors in putting clubs into administration is their inability to meet their wage bill. If a club finds itself in that position, its players should be allowed to leave on loan to any club that will pick up their wage bill regardless of the transfer window until such time as the club can afford to pay their wages again.
These measure should mean we would never see a repeat of what has happened to proud football clubs with loyal fans like Luton Town. I only hope they bounce straight back and begin climbing their way back up the leagues.
Meanwhile the double standards applied when it comes to the Big Boys is laughable.
The FA and Premier League turn a complete blind eye to the fact Man United are closing in on £1Billion pounds of debt - a debt that they will never ever pay off and simply roll over ever 18months and then service the interest.
Liverpool have half a billion pounds of debt which they cannot find a bank to take on. Their bankers refused to take on the debt for another term and merely rolled it over until the end of June to allow them find a new lender, something to date which they have not managed to do. In fact the only way they will get the loan is to sign over Anfield as security.
Arsenal thought their redevelopment of the old Highbury ground would pay for the cost of the new stadium. It hasn't and only some creative book keeping has stopped them racking up 3/4 of a debt close to a billion. Chelski meanwhile owe Ambravoich over a billion quid.
In fact a report by Delloite early in the season said that if Premier League clubs were judged by the standards of ordinary businesses that only WestHam and Hull would be declared solvent. The rest would be put into the hands of liquidators.
So before the authorities vilify Luton or impose draconian punishments, they should try looking at the other end of the league. If those big clubs didn't contribute so much cash to the FA they would surely be called to account over their suicidal business practices.
211 comments:
1 – 200 of 211 Newer› Newest»Someone has sussed out the more buzz words they get in a title, the further NewsNow throw it, lol
shut it you east end mug.
LOL Anon One. Some truth in that. But it is fun when fans from other clubs chip in. Mind the language though lads!!!!!!!
THIS COMING FROM A WEST HAM FAN! THE CHEEK OF IT! YOU SHOULDNT EVEN BE IN THE PREMIERSHIP RIGHT NOW AND THE AMOUNT OF DODGY DEALINGS BROWN DID A FEW YEARS AGO IT SHOULD BE WORSE...I JUST CANT BELIEVE A WEST HAM FAN CAN POST THIS UNBELIEVABLE!
not you mr Anonymous, this crappy ill-informed blogger. Go get a real hobby and a real football team to follow.
We are signing a new South American called Hypocrisy in the close season mate! On a Third Party Agreement of course!
I`ve heard he can play a bit, lol
If i could i would report you for being a raging hypocritical ball bag. You suck at life.
Unlike those clubs, Spurs are not in debt
yeah but spurs are rubbish.
A nice little article. Nice to see someone offering solutions, whether they be debatable or not, as opposed to the common practice of pointing out the obvious.
Do your home work, within the next two years Spurs will be in deep financial trouble, don`t take my word for it, DO YOUR HOME WORK
I think you'll find that Tottenham are one of the only clubs in the Premier League that aren't in debt. Get your facts straight before you write rubbish like this. We may not have won as much as we should have done in the last few decades but in the last ten years the business side of things is a credit and has been done right. We're not the ones with half a billion pounds worth of debt!
When the "Liverpool players shamelessly refused to waive their match fees"? Actually if my memory serves me correctly it was the club and not the players. But regardless, why the hell should our club bail Luton Town out for breaking the rules and not running their club properly?! It's their own fault.
This has to be one of the silliest articles out of all the thousands of silly articles that appear on the internet every day. And it's not even written by a Luton fan. What have Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Tottenham got to do with it?
Ah, yes. I see that the first response has hit the nail on the head. Mention the five most searched English clubs on the internet in the title and you'll get outstanding newsnow coverage. Bravo.....except that you've just made yourself look like a plonker to even more people than usual.
Ermm... Arsenal 3/4 of a billion bucks in debt?
No they're not you dimwit. Do your research properly at least and Highbury Square hasn't even been completed yet which will pay for 90% of the debt.
The accounts are easily accessible on the internet. Instead of writing such drivel; do some research first. Arsenal are also regenerating the area around the new stadium. What have any of the other top four debt ridden clubs ever done to be put in the same boat?
As for the spuds - yes they will be in debt when they build their "baby emirates" stadium.
Sod Comic Relief on that basis! Charity mate, helping out others in trouble, ever heard of the concept? The football world mourns the 96, we don't just leave it to Liverpool; would it really have hurt Liverpool to help out Luton?
Well said 22:34, but this boy aint a plonker he is a TNUC.
Brilliant idea 22.37! Now I can identify which Anonymous I am responding to!
i know 22:38, i've got better ideas than this mug!!!
Anonymous 22.31 - I'll happily do my homework, son, if you'll only tell me what I should be reading. You see, I've only read Spurs' AUDITED ACCOUNTS. You know, those funny little reports that publicly quoted companies are legally obliged to publish every six months.
The accounts tell me that Spurs are in rude financial health. They tell me Spurs have made an operating profit of £25 million or more for the past two years and are likely to make higher profits still this coming year.
They also tell me that Spurs' current NET ASSETS amount to some £250 million.
They further tell me that Spurs have a better wages to turnover ratio than any other Premiership club - at about 46%.
But since, oh wise one, you obviously know better than those useless auditors, could you please enlighten us all?
There's a good lad.
I have no idea mate, but Lloyds TSB read the audited accounts of HBOS before they absorbed them. There's a thought!
Arsenal's property development are separate from the football operations so it's not weighing down the club as much as it is the parent company. We're unlucky with the timing because of the economic crisis. We've built a brand new state of the art stadium so there's bound to be debt. Every organisation has debt but it's rise or fall depends on how they service that debt.
I think 22:34 needs to get his facts straight too. Download the easily available Tottenham ground plan etc from the website and you will see exactly why we won't be massively in debt and exactly how long the plans have been in progress. Unlike most clubs we can fill a ground week in week out without winning cups every year and have 20,000 people on a season ticket waiting list. On top of the 36,000 we already get, I think you'll find thats already nearly filling the ground. Unlike you mugs, we don't need Champions League football to fill our ground. Everyone knows your ground is filled with glory hunting 13 year old girls that won't be there the year after next when you don't come in the top four. Whoops.
Indeed, Hammersfan, that is a thought with which to conjure! Someone did not do their due diligence very.....err.......diligently.
But a bank in the middle of a credit crisis (crunch is too feeble a word, I feel) is hardly akin to a football club. Problem for Lloyds TSB (and (HBOS) was the complete lack of liquidity in the credit market and therefore the absence of money. Clearly, there can be no comparison to Spurs.
So I'd interested to hear how and why Anonymous 22.31 thinks Spurs will be in "deep financial trouble" within the next two years.
Should be good for a laugh!
Can't answer for him mate. But I must say that I can't work out how Tottenham can spend all that wedge without getting into trouble financially. Surely creative accounting must come into play somewhere? That is a question, not a statement!
LUTON FANS AND THERE NEW CHAIRMAN SHOULD BE PROUD AND THE FA SHOULD BE ASHAMED TO DOCK A TEAM 30 POINTS IS A DISCRASE WHEN BIG BANKS UTD SPONSER AIG BIG MORTGAGE LENDERS FREDDIE MACK AND FANNY MAY CAN GO UNDER AND STILL BE RESCUED THEN WHY SHOULD LUTON GET HAMMERED WITH 30 POINTS IT SHOULD BE A STANDARD TEN UNLESS ITS THE SAME PERSON DOING THE CRIME . THE PRESENT BEIFACTORS WERE NOT TO BLAME FOR THE MESS AND ITS THEM WHO GET THE WORST TREATMENT .WHAT HAPPENS IF A TEAM ABOVE LUTON GOES BUST YET LUTON ARE NOW ON A SOUND FOOTING ,SURLEY THIS WILL PUT OF PEOPLE SAVNG CLUBS .THIS HAPPENED TO MY HOME TOWN CLUB WIDNES WE HAD THE ONE OF THE BEST FRANCHISES AMONST THE SUPER LEAGUE CLUBS AND LOST OUT TO CLUBS THAT ARE NOW IN TROUBLE AND CANT BUILD A NEW GROUND ALL BECAUSE OF PAST CHAIRMANS . THE PRESENT CHAIRMAN TOLD THE POWERS THAT BE HE WOULD PUT TWO HUNDRED AND FIVETY THOUSAND IN THE BANK IF HE LEFT WIDNES IN THE LURCH IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE WE LOST OUT TO CLUBS THAT TOLD LIES AND CANNOT FUFILL THERE PROMISES .STAND PROUD LUTON AND YOU WILL PREVAIL.
What a blert! So Luton's downfall all started when Liverpool's players refused to waive their match fee - Why should they. Liverpool's fans pay their wages so why should LFC fans pay for Luton's players, Its funny how they managed to find 40 odd thousand fans for a trip to wembley at the weekend. The banning of away fans and plastic pitches has not helped has it. As for Man utd and liverpool being in debt then don't be so pathetic because they are not in debt at all, The new owners of both clubs have borrowed money to buy the clubs and if it ever came to a situation were these people could not carry on with payments then because both clubs have been run properly unlike Luton Town they would be self sufficiant. Luton Town good riddance in my opinion as they have always been run by greedy idiots and if any club deserves to go to the wall then it's them.
whilst i agree that its a dreadful shame that luton fans are the ones to suffer so much, i would like to point out that all the teams start the season with a set of rules. luton tried (and failed) to live beyond ther means, by spending money they didn't have on players etc; whilst other clubs spend to there limits, and rules. luton seeked an advantage that didn't pay off, and are having to pay the consequences of the previous boards mismanagement. unfortunately, as i have already said, the fans are the ones who end up suffering.
Any chance of the author actually backing up his claims about Spurs at some point?
They're completely at odds with anything official, so perhaps he'd like to enlighten us all?
23.00 Liverpool's fans pay their players wages do they? So nobody in Luton has a Sky package then? Honestly, think! The money paid at the gate is spit in the ocean for clubs like Liverpool.
@ Hammersfan
There's no real mystery to it, mate.
Firstly, Spurs is a very wealthy club. Turnover is about £115 million per annum. That's a long way below the top four, with their Champions League money, but it's also a great deal more than any other English club. Newcastle are next best on about £90 million and the likes of West Ham are about £70 million - a whole £45 million per annum less than Spurs.
Couple that with the fact that Tottenham is the mostly tightly run ship in the Premiership. Wages are a little over £50 million per annum and operating profits (ie before amortisation of player registrations) are generally in the £25-30 million range.
Yes, it's true that Spurs spent some £70 million on players last summer. But they also received the best part of £80 million for players sold. And while player trading is not audited on a simple money in / money out basis (I could explain in detail if you really wanted me to), it's easy enough to see that Spurs could easily afford to spend £25 million net every year on player trading and still make a profit.
23.04, I'm sure Celtic Hammer will respond when he next visits the site. I carried the article, I didn't write it.
23.05 Mail me a detailed explanation and I will run it, crediting you with a handle of your choice. I'm genuinely intrigued.
Its nice to see that something I wrote and someone else cobbled together into an article. Although I never actually mention spurs but I am always happy to take little time to take them down several pegs.
Firstly audit accoutns do not tell the whole story. Its a common misconception. The key to understandint spurs is their share capitalisation.
It is easy to pump money into a club by increasing the value of its share capital.
The key to spurs cash is joe lewis, he owns the club lock stock and barrell the problem is he has had a very bad couple of years.
He bought a 9 and a half per cent stake in Bear Stearns for $1.2billion just before the company collapsed triggering the whole sub prime mortgage collapse (just another reason to hate spurs fans) and ended up only recouping about $100M
To put that into context he lost more on that one deal than Sir Alan Sugar is worth in total.
Add that to the fact that his property portfolio has halved in value and of the £3billion he was worth he would struggle to raise half a billion in a pinch.
This will effect spurs in a couple of ways, firstly their credit rating is closely licked to his, secondly if he is under pressure elsewhere he may insist the club repay the money he has pumped into its share structure in the past.
Yes spurs is profitable when judged on its cash flow but that doesnt tell you everything.
The only way the club can pay him back is to borrow money just like ManU are paying off the purchase price Glazier paid for the club.
As with all spurs fans the pride will come before the fall but the arrogance and delusion will cushion the blow.
To be honest, it wouldn't make the most fascinating of articles and most readers would probably be roughly aware of the details anyway. All Premiership clubs are audited in the same way because they all use Deloitte Touche.
I'd be happy to post on here but if you still really feel that you want to run an article, I will email you if you prefer.
Hammersfan maybe I should email you directly from now on if only for you to spell check for me.
Yeah give it a go. I'll get Celtic to write a reply. Two intelligent guys debating over the fence would be great - makes a change from, "Shut it East End mug!" Thanks for contributing!
LOL Celtic. Keep banging up the replies but do email through some articles so I can post them and give you full credit. Email contact would be good anyway.
Its a bit rich for a West ham fan to slate other teams for mis-management, getting favourable decisions from the FA and debt innit?
But I really dont wanna get in the way of the spud bashing!
So someone in Luton who subscribes to the movie channel is now paying Liverpool players wages eh. So then Hammersfan i hope to hear you start a campaign for the West Ham players to never be payed again as to use their wages to go toward any club that is struggling after all West Ham get some of this SKY money as well which by the way due to the likes of Man utd Liverpool Arsenal Chelsea and Spurs is why people subscribe to television channels. Hang on why I THINK if you knew anything about Liverpool then match fee's have been waved before and we have even had our reserves who sometimes have more spectators than Luton play at various lower league grounds whose clubs have been struggling and we have not took a penny from these sides from gate receipts for the whole season. Liverpool or any of the other mentioned teams owe zilch to Luton Town.
23.32 If we want an example of hypocrisy, it must be the attitude of Liverpudlians to The Sun but the willingness of the club to take Murdoch's millions from the Sky deal!
Okay. Here goes:
Basically, player registrations appear in the accounts - in layman's terms - as depreciating assets.
Most people think that, at the end of the financial year, clubs tot up how much has been spent on incoming players and how much has been received from outgoing players and then calculate profit and loss.
But that's not it. What actually happens is that the value of a player's registration will be amortized (written off) in equal measures over the duration of his contract.
In other words, if a player is bought for £10 million on a five year contract, after one year, his value in the accounts will be calculated at £8 million. After two years, £6 million; and so on until, after five years (and even if he signs a new contract and stays at the club) his registration will be calculated at zero.
An example being Robbie Keane: when Spurs sold him to Liverpool last summer, he had been at Spurs beyond the term of his initial contract at the club. Consequently, he was valued at zero in the accounts and therefore all £20 million of the fee paid by Liverpool was profit.
Likewise, youth team products are valued in the accounts at zero. Therefore, if West Ham were to sell any of Tomkins, Noble, Collison at some point, every penny received for them would be profit.
For the sake of example, let's imagine that a club has an entire squad of players that have been with the club for years and that each of those players is consequently valued at zero in the accounts. Let's also imagine that the club wants to wipe the slate clean and start the new season with a completely new squad of players. Let's further imagine that the club subsequently sells their existing squad for a total of £50 million. Finally, let's imagine that the club buys an entirely new squad of players for £100 million, all on five year contracts.
At the end of that financial year, the club will have made a profit of £30 million on player trading. That's because all of the £50 million received will be profit while only one fifth of the £100 million will be amortized.
It is late so I need time to digest that but my first reaction is, amortize as much as you like, there's still money been shelled out somewhere. I'll get back to you and probably run this as an article in its own right if you are OK with that. Who should I credit it to?
Hang on did I miss something or has a liverpool fan just been on here lecturing about other clubs finances?
The fact remains mate that your first team of multi-millionaires wouldnt waive their match fees against a Luton team who were not even recieving their full wages.
so what if you play your reserve games at smaller clubs grounds, so do all premier league teams so dont break your arm patting yourself on the back.
To be fair to stevie G(BH) he was saving up for his defense fund, I hear he even takes mondays off to collect his Giro just in cast this football malarky doesnt work out.
You're club is the poster boy for financial mismanagement, you have debts that are in excess of the total value of the club and have been hocking your future media and image rights like some strumpet swinging her handbag to make ends meet.
Your current lenders RBS and Waiychavia refused to take on your loan for another term and if ye can not find another bank to take ye on by the end of june ye are in serious trouble.
The club is owned by two guys who dont have the real wear with all to buy Tranmere let alone Liverpool. Sooner rather than later you will default on your debts and then the biggest name in English football will go bust.
I cant wait to see how you feel about clubs helping out struggling clubs at that point!
Anon (23.54) yeah that would work mate if Robbie Keane was company car! Players values are calcualted by a combination of what they club paid for them, what the club has then insured for, what they generate for the club in merchandise sales, image rights and media rights and then they are listed as an asset.
By tour reckoning Theo Walcott is now listed as worthless on Arsenals balance sheet! As is Ronaldo at ManU!
All I can say is thank god your not my accountant!
Hammersplank you've just proved to me what most dickheads do when losing an argument with Liverpool fans you either bring up Hillsborough or you start calling us Murderers. You brought up SKY not me. Back to the point anyway let's not forget the plight of less unfortunate clubs like Luton Town (rule braking and backhanders everywhere) and poor clubs who have unfortunatley been shafted by others like SHEFF UTD.
So your comments about Spurs are all based on conjecture then, CelticHammer?
Why am I not surprised?
Funny that you fail to mention that your own owner is actually bankrupt and that West Ham face being taken into receivership by Lansbanki.
Totally unbiased, impartial and honest.
Anon (00.10) You are completely right about poor clubs being shafted by other like Sheff Utd, they shafted Barnsley when they left that thug Chris Morgan on to the pitch to almost kill Iain Hulme, then one of their former players Claude Davis shafted Cardiff by hospitalising Roger Johnson! Oh and lets not forget how they shafted Watford by refusing to let Steve Kabba play against sheff utd AFTER they had transferred him to Watford.
You're right mate these money grabbing, grubby, flat cap wearing, knuckle dragging thugs should be kicked out of the league!
Well said!
00.10, When don't Liverpool fans bring up Hillsborough? It is in the news this week isn't it? From what I understand, millions across the City still refuse to buy The Sun, yet the club take the filthy lucre from Sky. Illogical?
Can't work out how Sheffield United were shafted myself. No Third Party clause was ever triggered.
Anon (00.15) where is the conjecture? Go to Reuteurs, FT.Com or anywhere else to find out about Joe Lewis, its all a matter of public record. In fact its the stuff of legend at JP Morgan and I know a lot of guys over there who nearly fell over laughing when they saw how Lewis had stitched himself up on that deal
As for the clubs share structure, ENIC was formed to buy the club from Alan Sugar who wanted to take more time off to concentrate on other projects like growing a proper beard!
ENIC didnt exist before this so money was put into the company to buy his shares.
Now at what point did that money get repaid? Answer? It didnt
ENIC converted that money into share capital which is a way around actually loaning money to the club but ENIC is still entitled to expect the club to buy those shares back at some stage,
No conjecture there mate!
Just facts!
The stuff about Lewis is almost true.
He's now 'only' estimated to be worth £1.5bn.
Daniel Levy has been chairman of ENIC since 1995 and they didn't take over at Spurs til 2001, so your claim that they were formed to do so is clearly false.
Feel free to provide evidence of these mysterious loans, though.
No answer about your owner's bankruptcy, I notice.
Why?
Celtichammer you know f all about Liverpool's finances fella so stop writing things down as though they are facts. If you take out a mortgage on a house and you cannot afford the payments then they do not take your house of you and then knock it down. As for patting ourselves on the back for waving fees to wrexham then again it was you and your buddy at the forfront of helping out the needy. As for the other dickhead going on again about the sun then guess what bell end the daily star and other papers also printed the lies but did not headline it as the truth. Liverpool fans have had appoligies from certain orgs as well as murdoch but not one from Mckenzie and his source for the story. They have said they are sorry but will not print a story declaring their lies, so to us all that they are interested in is selling the sun once again in merseyside. Anyway what that has to do with you after all were not in any ones face not to buy it so u carry on looking at the tits softlad (not the west ham players) It must be selective memory loss but have the hammers just had to pay shef utd a few bob? You don't pay out if your not guilty. Even though it's half term and you two are off for another week I've got work in the morning and before you start coming out with your job or giro jokes then don't show yourselves up cos i'm yet to meet a funny cockney in all my life, then again you two are fucking hillarious.
Anon ENIC's sole purpose in England was to buy spurs. The company also owns part of AEK, Rangers, FC Basle, Slavia Prague and Vicenza so their performance also effects the parent company and directly effects spurs.
As for loans, what do you think they paid Sugar with when they bought the club? I doubt he took payment in bottle tops!
The fact that Lewis and Levy were able to take the company back into private ownership for a mere £40M is your first insight into the house of cards that is spurs.
As for BG, he has turned WestHam into a profitably stable club that have finished above you last season and will do so again this season while bringing through some of the most outstanding young talent in England and secureing them and Zola and Clarke to long term deals.
Oh and as for his cash, he and his son are in the process of selling Actavis, their pharmaceutical company for $8billion, clearing them a profit of $3Billion. The bankrupcy you are referring to is in fact a type of court protected administration to allow his business to be sorted out after the Icelandic government nationalised ALL the banks in the country.
Thanks for playing though!
NEXT!
Anon (00.41) dont worry mate I wont tell the DSS about your job! Dont want to cost you benefits! As for liverpools finances its all a matter of record.
Even the spirit of shankley supporters group threatened to boycott RBS for refusing to refinance the loan (check out lfconline.com), luckily RBS doesnt do a lot of hire purchase for tvs and seeing as most of you boys just wait for your team to play an away game before nipping round and tea leafing their tv its an empty threat.
Check out redandwhitekop.com to read the open letter to RBS virtually begging them to refinance the club. What a lot of your fans dont realise is that Gillett and Hicks removed their personal assets from any deal to refinace the club or that RBS only hold 2 thirds of the debt and there is another £150M out there looking for a new home.
Why would your owners remove their own assets from acting as security for the clubs debts???????
"ENIC was formed to buy the club"
"ENIC's sole purpose in England was to buy spurs"
That's two completely different things.
Would you care to change your story again or is that your final answer?
I believe ENIC has sold all of it's other footballing interests too, by the way.
When ENIC bought it's shares is Spurs they used actual money.
You may have heard of it.
Your open hatred of a clearly superior club continues to cloud your judgement on your last point, too.
Bjorgolfsson jnr doesn't own Actavis, which is estimated to be worth $6bn not $8bn.
He's the chairman.
The Icelandic government were forced to nationalise all of the banks largely because of your owner, though.
What a top bloke!
You clearly have no idea about the finances at Spurs and cannot back up anything that you've claimed about dodging financing.
Just another sad, bitter Iron.
Cheers for the six points, though.
You may wish to have a quick look at this, CelticHammer:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2301797/Deloitte-football-finance-review-Club-by-club-Premier-League-analysis.html
How's that debt going?
anon (00.57) so you are reduced to semantics at this stage?
I am not going to discuss the Icelandic banking crisis as most if not all of it would go over your head but Landsbanki was the last retail bank standing in Iceland and did not trigger the banking collapse, in fact the Icelandic govenment wanted Landsbanki to take over Glitnir to keep the banking sector afloat but then decided due to a massive fall in public confidence they had to nationalise all retail banks.
As for Actavis BG and Thor are the principle shareholders in the company which they control through Novotar. Also Reuteurs reckon that due to the fact that the company is being broken up and sold in chunks (its actually too big for any one comapny to acquire) it will fetch $8billion. Maybe Joe Lewis is giving you financial advice!
You can talk all you want abuot tight financial management at spurs but even you must accept that spending over £150M on a squad to finish midtable is not sustainable!
I am looking forward to seeing how ye fare in the next couple of years as I will happily stake my professional reputaion on the fact that the wheels will come off in a huge way for you!
Am I bitter? Yes! I hate how we keep finishing above you in the league! And to make matter worse we do it without spending stupid money on waste of space players like dos santos, or prince boateng when all we have are a bunch of talented young players who came through the ranks at the Academy of Football!
The whole thing is made worse by being stuck with Zola (the games most talented young manager) and Clarke (one of the most respected coaches in Europe) for another 4 years. At this rate we will never finish below you! I gotta be honest mate its the bain of my life seeing our first team and our rising starts signing long term deals with the club.
This tag of over achievers is a burden I tell you. Even when we got into a relegation scrap we couldnt quietly and stutteringly claw oour way out of it, oh no not us! We have to perform The Great Escape! I tell you its embarassing, it really is. What were we at beating Arsenal and ManU on their patch? winning 7 of our last 9 games, it was a bloody cheek mate it really was.
Anon (01.13) yeah thanks for that blast from the past! Nothing like an article written a year ago based on figures from a year before that for an up to the minute financial review!
Whats next? You gonna tell me the berlin wall has come down? the titanic has sank? That man has invented fire!
Still though the past is nice, the past is warm and fuzzy for spurs fans, much more satisfying than looking at a league table!
@ CelticHammer
You are a perfect example of how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, my friend!
Sure, Joe Lewis could decide to use Tottenham Hotspur as his personal cash cow. He could, like the Glazers or Gillette and Hicks, decide to take out a huge "mortgage" on Spurs. But that is true of every single football club owner in Britain - including the owners of West Ham and Celtic. So it's a rather meaningless thing for anyone to say.
Such a scenario is highly unlikely to happen anyway. Firstly, as disasterous an investment as Bear Stearns was for Lewis, a £500 million loss in the context of an estimated fortune of £3 billion is hardly terminal. More relevant is the fact that Tavistock Group - the umbrella company for all Lewis' businesses - doesn't rely on debt or leverage. A quote from their managing director, Douglas McMahon:
"There isn't a dollar of debt in our investment portfolio and we do not pledge one asset against another. That is why the fall in Bear Stearns' share price does not really matter. To us it was an anomaly."
Therefore, as much as Bear Stearns might have hurt, Lewis is not feeling the pinch. Tavistock Group are still actively investing and expanding their portfolio and they would not be doing so if Lewis was under pressure. As to the fall in property prices, Lewis is a cool customer. He's not the panicking type. Property prices will eventually recover. And besides, as I've already pointed out, there is no debt to service. So he doesn't need to raise funds.
Lastly, I don't know where you get the notion that Spurs are in hock to Lewis. Joe Lewis owns about 75% of ENIC which, in turn, owns about 82% of Spurs. ENIC bought an initial 30% shareholding in THFC (mostly from Alan Sugar) for about £24 million. Subsequently, in January 2004, Spurs held a rights issue which raised £15 million. ENIC took up their entitlement, naturally, and also underwrote the issue. Since a large proportion of existing shareholders failed to subscribe to the issue, ENIC eventually contributed about £11 million of the £15 million. And since the shares issued were Convertible Redeemable Preference shares and since each cost 16p at a time when ordinary shares were worth nearer 60p, ENIC were able to increase their overall shareholding in THFC to more than 55% while also massively reducing the average amount they had paid per share (having paid Sugar 80p per share).
More recently, ENIC has increased its percentage shareholding to 82% by buying out further shareholders and by virtue of THFC buying back shares (and therefore reducing the number of issued shares).
So where do you get the notion that Tottenham has to "pay back" anything to Joe Lewis? The only money that ENIC has spent on Spurs has been to BUY shares - either from other shareholders or through the mechanism of a share issue. Tottenham Hotspur owes Joe Lewis nothing....nada....zilch....bugger all.
I get the impression that you fail to understand Lewis' investment strategy. He is not out to use Tottenham as a cash cow. ENIC are all about maximizing share value. And they can only do that by improving the club - both by success on the pitch and growth off the pitch (eg building a new stadium).
And it seems to be working. I would estimate that ENIC's 82% share has cost them in the region of £70 million. And they will likely pass through the 90% threshold - after which they can enforce a compulsory purchase of all remaining shares - after the rights issue that will raise money for the new stadium.
It would already take interested parties in the region of £250-400 million to buy Spurs. ENIC have therefore already made a big paper profit on their investment. Once the stadium is built, Spurs' value will most likely rise to north of £500 million.
Why would Joe Lewis wish to sabotage what has so clearly been a hugely successful investment for him? It wouldn't make any sense.
I can understand why, as a Hammers fan, you would want to believe that Spurs will soon be in dire financial straits. But it really is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part, I'm afraid. So don't hold your breath. Quite apart from the danger of asphyxiation, you'll end up sorely disappointed!
Who's using semantics?
You clearly didn't know what you were talking about and changed your story when that was shown.
Your patronising, ill-informed gibberish just continues onward, doesn't it?
We've spent money on our squad but we've also clearly made vast amounts on player sales.
£80m this summer alone.
Overachievers?
Our 17 trophies to your 4 say otherwise.
"Even when we got into a relegation scrap we couldnt quietly and stutteringly claw oour way out of it, oh no not us"
No, you had to play a player that was illegally registered and now have to pay Sheffield United £20m!
The time before that you went down, of course.
Keep banging on about the World Cup, the academy of football and your other myths and we'll continue to be financially stable a win 4 times as many trophies as you.
Back up your baseless claims or admit what we all know.
That you don't know what you're talking about.
@ CelticHammer
re your 00.08 comment:
Laugh all you like, son, but that is how EVERY Premiership club, on the advice of Deloitte Touche, has recorded player values in their accounts for the past ten years or so.
Really, if you're going to try to take the piss, you should do a bit of basic research first.
Anon, i dont know which one, why cant you people use names?
So building a stadium will make you more valuable? What you gonna build it with? Do you not think you will have to pay out money to do so? Or are you going sell your own ground in the middle of the biggest recession in recent memeory. Sure people with sense will ride this out but to say Lewis wont feel the pinch is rubbish.
As is the statement that Bear Stearns was an anomaly. In fact its an oxymoron. You can not say that your business does not leverage to buy assets and then say that a 90% loss on the purchase of that asset is not a major loss.
Its understandable that Lewis would put a brave face on it but he was made to look very foolish. He actually continued to increase his stake in the company as it went down the pan.
Forbes put his current net worth at around £500M. His problem is that his businesses are hugely reliant on consumer confidence. Property, Gamnling, Retail and investments (both stocks and property) are very tough places to make money. And if you think that a football club is an appreciating asset in this market you are really really wrong!
Anyone looking for a response from me is going to have to wait till the morning. Still it will give you a chance to badly research your next argument
Forbes put Joe Lewis' net worth at £500m?
Really?
Their website disagrees:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/10/billionaires-2009-richest-people_Joseph-Lewis_IE5X.html
Any more incorrect statements you care to make?
Anyone care for a chorus of, "1-0, it's your cup final"?
I hardly know where to start with CelticHammer. Has there ever before been a poster who managed combine ignorance and arrogance in such volume and such equal measure?
He insists that Liverpool's debt is the result of financial mismanagement on the part of the club and that ENIC had no purpose in England other than to buy Tottenham Hotspur.
What poppycock! What a puffed up fool of a fellow he is!
Liverpool are in debt only because their owners have mortgaged the company.
And ENIC bid for ownership of Manchester United three years before they bought Spurs:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/enic-shoots-at-premiership-goal-1196974.html
ENIC also owned a portfolio of English based companies before Spurs - and not just other European football clubs. They already owned (and still own) a major stake in software company Autonomy; a stake in Warner Bros Studio Stores; and UKbetting. They also bid for Victor Chandler shortly before they bid for Spurs.
Please, CelticHammer, to save yourself further embarrassment, don't dig yourself in any deeper. Cut your losses.
one last time. the forbes list you are quoating is based on figures to the end of the third quarter of last year. Funny how they thought he lost a Billion in Bear Stearns though, they didnt think it was an anomaly!
Forbes will be issuing a revised rich list in June with up to date valuations.
So despite being dated 11/3/9 and mentioning Lewis' Bear Stearns loss, you think that it wasn't taken into account?
Ok, then...
Gibberish.
Is there any truth that there is a huge shortage of straws and lemons in East London?
Anon Bear Stearns happened between sep 07 and mar 08 so yes they would have counted that. mar is in the first quarter of the year!
So why on earth do you think that his value has fallen by $2bn this year then?
@ CelticHammer
re your 01.19 post:
If it's recent figures you want, Spurs' interim accounts show profit for the six months to December 31st 2008 of £40 million and net assets of £67 million.
Very healthy indeed. Far, far healthier than West Ham....although we'll have to wait to discover just how big the difference is because West Ham have still failed to publish their accounts for 2007-08. The fact that they are already three and a half months late does not suggest that the accounts will come as a pleasant surprise to Hammers fans. Not to mention, of course, the added burden of the payment due to Sheffield United that will appear in subsequent accounts.
Suffice to say that West Ham's latest (2007) accounts show turnover of £57 million (compared to Spurs Spurs' £115 million last year) and a loss of £22 million.
Frankly, it is a wonder that you have the gall to question Spurs' financial health.
Hammersfan, 23.58:
You're right that amortizing the value of player registrations does seem to be creative accounting to benefit clubs who spend big. But clubs would, in fact, rather not have to account for players in such a manner. They only do so on Deloitte Touche's recommendation.
The problem with such a manner of including player trading in the accounts is that it leaves clubs open to far higher tax bills. For instance, Spurs originally paid £7 million for Robbie Keane. But when he was sold to Liverpool, he had been at the club for longer than the term of his initial contract. He was therefore valued at zero on Spurs' books.
Consequently, Spurs have to pay tax on the entire £20 million that they received from Liverpool and not just on the £13 million that would normally have constituted profit.
Point I'm making is that, as complicated as it may appear, this isn't a case of creative accounting on Spurs' part to make it seem as though their financial situation is better than it actually is.
It is merely Deloitte Touche wishing to account for players (whose value is otherwise incredibly hard to calculate) as depreciating assets. It's a matter of accounting expedience - for the benefit of the accountants rather than the clubs.
CelticHammer, you have made a complete and utter fool of yourself on here, spouting your ill informed gibberish about Totenham and their finances.
You are clearly just a bitter little West Ham fan, talking total rubbish, you have been found out to be a blatant liar on many occasions on this thread, stating things as facts, when in fact you have been talking absolute rubbish.
Yes Joe Lewis lost £500 million on One deal, but you failed to mention that the Tavistock group, made a similar amount of profit on other deals during the same financial year.
You clearly know very little about ENIC do you, the fact is that you stated that ENIC owning those other football clubs could impact on Tottenham's finances, the truth is those clubs were sold off ages ago, so you got that wrong as well didn't you.
Then you claimed that Joe Lewis has taken Tottenham back into private ownership, again you are 100% wrong Tottenham Hotspur are still a plc, but don't let those facts deter you from making a complete fool of yourself will you CelticHammer.
One of my fellow Spurs fans is totally clued up on here, and has already found you out "big time" he has mugged you off, with regards to everyone of your lies about Tottenham and their finances.
You come across as a typical bitter little Hammer, as for your rubbish about West Ham "always finishing above Tottenham" drivel , One year it is in fact, that's right One year, you really are very economical with the truth aren't you CelticHammer, as in fact Spurs finished 5th the Two previous seasons, yet more lies and spin from you then CelticHammer.
Despite Tottenham spending the Second highest amount of money after Chelsea over the last Five years, Tottenham are actually in profit over those same Five years, check out the annual accounts on Tottenham's official website, then come back and try to tell me something different.
If you come back and blatantly lie yet again, I will copy and paste the relevant parts of the accounts, and put links up for those Five years, to prove to everyone that you are spouting your ill informed lies Once again, as you have done all through this thread.
You clearly have a big problem with Tottenham as do many other bitter West Ham fans, and you have resorted to wishful thinking and making up things up to discredit Tottenham as a club.
But unfortunately you have been found out as being a blatant liar haven't you CelticHammer.
CelticHammer - what HAVEN'T you got wrong so far?
You're wrong about ENIC being established purely to buy Tottenham Hotspur.
You're wrong about Premiership clubs' standard accounting procedures.
You're wrong about your estimation of Joe Lewis' current net worth.
You're wrong about Joe Lewis owning Spurs "lock stock and barrel" (ENIC only owns 82% and, besides, he only owns about 75% of ENIC - meaning that he actually only owns 60-65% of Spurs).
You're wrong about Tottenham Hotspur having to pay back Joe Lewis.
You're wrong about ENIC still owning stakes in Rangers, Basle, Vicenza and AEK.
You're wrong about ENIC taking Spurs private. The club is still quoted on AIM.
I've rarely come across someone who was so full of shit.
The funny thing is that most people (you know...with at least some intelligence and a sense of shame) who had shown themselves up as badly as CelticHammer would have crept away from this thread a loooooong time ago to lick their wounds.
But CelticHammer is so fucking obtuse, I expect him to keep on coming back for more punishment.
Bosh!
CelticHammer appears to have been well and truly hammered on this thread. Very amusing.
CelticHammer - you ask how Spurs will pay for their new stadium. The answer is that it will be funded in a variety of ways.
In no particular order:
1. Naming rights deal. In the region of £5-10 million per annum over a 10-15 year period.
2. Seats rights deal These are the people that Spurs are dealing with:
http://seatrights.com/
3. Share issue, underwritten by ENIC.
4. Property sales - land, with planning permission, for supermarket (likely to be Sainsburys) and 500 homes.
5. Debt finance - remember that Tavistock Group has its own merchant banking arm so a reasonable level of debt finance would be readily available to Spurs.
By the way, no one said that a football club was an appreciating asset in the current economic climate - so enough of the straw man arguments, eh? The fact remains that it would take an offer in the region of £250-400 million to buy Spurs right now. And whichever way you look at it, that represents a huge paper profit for ENIC. When the new stadium is complete - which won't be for at least four and a half years - the economic outlook could be very different. And certainly, once the global economy has fully recovered, a Spurs complete with much bigger, much better new stadium would be worth north of £500 million.
That's why it would make no sense for Lewis to sabotage his investment in Spurs - even if he was desperate to raise funds. And I think we have already established that he is not at all desperate. Moreover, doing what you suggest he might is simply not Lewis' style. His investment strategy is all about increasing value - not about using companies as cash cows.
CelticHammer - you wrote:
"ENIC converted that money into share capital which is a way around actually loaning money to the club but ENIC is still entitled to expect the club to buy those shares back at some stage"
Umm......Bjorgolfur Gudmundsson's initial £90 million investment comprised £45 million of interest bearing loan notes that were subsequently converted into shares. His holding company, Hansa ehf, subsequently loaned a further £20.5 million to WHU which was also converted into shares.
West Ham are therefore far, far more in hock to their Icelandic fella than Spurs have ever been to Joe Lewis.
Are you sure that this you want the discussion to go in this particular direction? You'll only lose....
....again.
CelticHammer - "West Ham KEEP finishing above Spurs"? Really? Are you sure? They've managed the trick only ONCE in the past six seasons. And I wouldn't go counting my chickens about this season either. Only three points between the clubs.
Nice reminder, shame on Liverpool, they claim to be a club of the working man but when given a straight choice they decided to line their own pockets. What goes around ...
OK guys, I certainly do not want to draw a line under this and look forward to reading Celtic's reply, but I would like to say at this stage how refreshing and impressive the debate has been. I don't know who is right - I will be researching myself - but I would say that any confidence about the financial health of companies is dangerous at the moment. Look at the clearing banks, Woolworths and the car companies! This forum was not about the finances of Tottenham or Liverpool per se but about the inequitable treatment of Luton Town when set alongside how the big clubs are treated. Some of the financing of the Prem clubs does seem a little dubious to say the least - is it just that Luton's books were easier to read and understand and Luton couldn't afford a legal team to take on the authorities?
ive never seen a poster and their lies to be so methodically taken apart as celtichammer....he has been broken down to his very DNA, on a west ham blog i might add! LOL.....may you rest in peace!
Wow did you guys stay up all night have a circle jerk? Even with no one to answer you still cant get it right.
I must say I find it amusing that you lot call me bitter when the venom practically drips frome every post.
I guess one late night wont hurt too much, what with you being on school holidays.
Lets run through this shall we.
Firstly YES BG did the exact same thing with WestHam when converting its debts into shares, I didnt say Joe Lewis did anything wrong in what he did in fact every owner of a club does it. Technically the club owes that money to the owner.
In the purchase of any asset, the asset owes the purchase price to the owner. Thas simply a fact.
As for Jow Lewis and his loss in Bear Stearns lets not try and mitigate it by arguing over exchange rates, the deal was done in dollars so lets keep the loss at over 1Billion dollars, which it was.
As for his current wealth, you have obviously failed to notice how the last 6months have seen the steepest drop in the value of the type of assets he holds, in the 3rd quarter of last year the world economy fell off a cliff.
Oh by the way I love the guy who chose only the last 6season to compare league finishes, we were in the championship for 2 of those and got relegated the season before that. You know during the early 1800 before WestHam existed we never finished above you either.
Moving on, you can all pick on little piece of info and try and beat me over the head with it by saying I am clueless. Well guys I'm not, seek all the comfort you want from telling each other how smart you are but when discussing your club and its finances you tend to ignore the bad and only focus on he good. Kind of like Lewis did when he increased his stake in Bear stearns.
You think that a new stadium will make your club more valuable, now Arsenal who have a vastly bigger turnover than you guys have virtually been bankrupted by their new stadium.
WhiteHart lanes value as an asset has dropped significantly in recent years, as has every football ground. You do not have the turnover to finance a new build from cash flow and will have to borrow to build your stadium.
Your owner is not in the position to fund this so that means going to the banks for the money.
Liverpool (again a vastly more valuable club) can not get any bank to fund their new ground. Now in their case it could be argued that without the increase in ticket revenues from such a new groound they will actually default on their current borrowings. If they cant get the money for a 60,000 seater stadium then how will you?
Now I am sure Lewis could convince some of his shall we say....... friends of a similar cultural outlook who dont eat pork....... to lend you the cash but what will that do to you?
You are looking at a minimum 3year build and thats if you can nick some firm who are not already working on 2012 projects.
The debt for the stadium will begin to accumulate 4years before the first paying fan walks through the turnstiles, how will you fund those repayments? You current trunover wont do it. So you are looking at more debt in the form of bridging finance.
Now in its current state spurs is profitable from cash flow, i have never argued that, but continuing to finish midtable while spending the money you are makes it impossible for that to continue. Remember you have a summer coming up with 'Arry boy in charge, you can not even begin to fathom what that man can do with a cheque book during the summer.
Now if your club was as sure of its finances going forward why have they not lower prices to help the fans like we have at Upton Park?
If a new stadium is going to make your club more valuable then why have your board tried so hard to get the 2012 stadium?
Guys you can rant and rave all you like and tell me how wrong I am but sooner or later your going to have to face up to the fact that your club and its owners do not exist inside a recession proof bubble.
Personally I could care less about spurs your belief that anyone who questions your club is bitter is laughable, WestHam fans have nothing to be bitter about when it comes to your club and its managerial merry go round.
Be honest boys whats the real problem here? Its Harry isnt it? It makes you sick to your stomach to see a wheeler dealer, wide boy like him at the helm of the self styled aristocats of English football. You cringe at the thought of him walking your hallowed halls, pissing in the bidet and putting ketchup on the caviar at the board lunches. For years he was your biggest source of fun to poke at us and now your farce of a club has fallen so far, has stooped so low as to have to call in a clown like Redknapp to save you.
You dont realise it yet but you are well on your way to being the next newcastle.
I hope you do get your new ground, I would personally love to hang that albatros around your neck.
Why do you lot spend so much time argueing with Hammers fans anyway? I thought you were a big club! Why are you not argueing with ManU fans? Is it because when you measure yourselves against them you come up a little short?
Why do all football fans hate spurs? It cant be jealousy because all fans dont hate ManU, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelski and they are way way way more successful than you lot.
Do you really think you are a big club? If so then wy? What makes you such a big club when you have to blow hundreds to millions to try and compete with us. so you signed a few of our players! So what! So has virtually every other club in England. ManU have players from WestHam who have gone on to win loads of honours and they dont think it makes them better than us. Isnt the real question why cant you produce these players yourselves? I am a big club should have a decent youth policy so why dont ye? So you won the league cup recently, who cares. Big clubs, like proper big clubs treat it as a run out for their reserves.
How can managers you chased out of white hart lane with pitchforks and burning torches be doing so well at other clubs? Jol has Hamburg playing incredible stuff and Ramos has Real keeping up the pressure on Barca.
Are ye a big club because you can afford big transfer fees? Man Citeh could buy your entire club just to give Robinho somewhere to park his car. Are you a big club based on attendence? Well no, sunderland get more at a home game as do Newcastle and obviously the big 4 so that rules that out then.
Maybe if you say you are a big club often enough it will come through! You know click your heels three times and say "theres no place like fourth theres no place like forth!" and see if it comes through.
Maybe just maybe you are not a big club, not by any meaningful measure anyway and your selfloathing your delusions of grandeur and your need to believe that your club has not become a cess pit of money hungry foreign mercenaries, managerial musical chairs and ever falling league performances forces you to shout to any and all who will listen that you are a big club.
You keep telling yourself that and us and all other football fans will continue to laugh at you.
You need to believe that WestHam fans are bitter, you need to believe that we are jealous because it validates you but the truth is a WestHam would trade Johnathon Spector for anything you have and thats saying something because I would swap that guy for a plasma TV for the spare room in my place in Marbella. There is nothing you have that we want, not at the price you have to pay by being a spurs fan.
The article that Hammersfan put up from my posts doesnt even mention you, go back and check the posts they are under the Luton town thread. So why is it only you lot who come screaming on here and stay up all night having an arguement with someone who is tucked up in bed!
Me thinks, the deep down inside, right next to the sense of shame from the last time you did karioke, tucked away where no one can see it is the realisation that your nothing more than a midtable team that has lost its identity and become just another team making up the numbers in the premiership.
Celtichammer I did warn you not to make yourself look stupid by talking about suttin you know f all about. The spirit of shankly group did not threaten RBS to make sure they re financed the American's loans it was the other way round to stop them re financing you blert. Stick to west ham softlad cos believe me weve got a list ready to buy our club when the yanks bail including a fanshare group ready to buy the club. Have Luton Town. Have they shite there fans only crawl out the woodwork for a trip to Wembly
you have to laugh at poor old celtic hammer, not only has he not answered the questions that were put to him about his shaky knowledge of finance but instead opted for an essay that rambles on but doesn't in fact answer much....but what is so, so clear from him is his absolute want for spurs to be seen as only an equal of west ham in terms of stature, when the undenialble truth is the opposite...spurs are a richer club (vastly)...we have a better history, we routinely "hammer the hammers"...so much so that we have now scored 7 times past them without reply in the last 3 matches alone...they have villa next at villa park? we have newcastle at home, i can only see us winning that with our current home form and newcastle in free fall...and i cant see west ham getting a result at villa park, so this time next week should see the hammers below us in the league where they will remain...of course all this seems to eat away at hammers like celtic...but he seems game so credit to him, but the opinion that the future is doom and gloom for spurs and our finances, considering we run the tightest ship in the prem, and the future for west ham is bright because of the world beating youngsters, is little more than wishful thinking, and that seems to be a common theme
So after having everything you've said ripped to pieces your only comeback is basically, "I hate Spurz! Bloody Jewz!"?
Classy!
I'd love to help tear up any further points that you had, but it's obvious that you don't have any.
Enjoy your sad, bitter existence and thanks again for the six points!
CelticHammer, is so embarrassed by the fact that he has been totally owned, and found out on this thread that he has removed the link from NewsNow LOL.
All of the Tottenham fans on here, have totally mugged you off regarding Tottenham's excellent finances, and everyone knows it, but you still insisted on coming back with your baseless bitter drivel and making a complete tool of yourself yet again.
Just like the Hammers, a perennial LOSER !!!
Anon 10:53, you're right! The open letter to RBS was actually requesting the polar opposite of what Celtic Hammer suggested, that RBS withdraw its financial support to the club, because in their view the business plan drawn up by the current owners was unviable and too risky. How on earth can a guy professing to be some sort of guru on the financial state of other clubs get that so wrong! The letter's in the public domain for god's sake! And he has the cheek to refer to contributions of other posters on this thread as "badly researched". Mate, any credibility you had (negligible) to begin with has now completely disintegrated. If I were you, I would do what many others on here have suggested and just quit whilst you are very much behind to save what little dignity you have left. For the sake of my ongoing entertainment however (what a stimulating life I lead), I sincerely hope you keep on coming back!
Anon Liverpool fan whats that I hear tick tock tick tock. Oh yeah its the June 30th deadline for Liverpool to find a bank willing to take on their loan. Things is matey its already April and there have been no takers.
No one wants to lend you money and no one wants to buy your club.
If you lot fail to win either the premier league or the champions league you are in serious danger of going into administration.
Personally I think its sad to see any club with a history like yours in such a state but burying your head in the sand isnt going to fix things.
after being broken down to his sandles, celtichammer turns his attention to liverpool, but again attacks another clubs finances....has anyone informed this imbecile his own club is in horrendous financial condition but without the turnover and profit of the clubs he is attacking! he ridicules himself with every post, and like a demented heathen, returns for more flogging!
Oh no we really must be in trouble if you say so. I see that you have failed to address my point about your hilarious misdescription of the open letter to RBS. It's funny that a jumped up, wannabe smartass can get something as easily available as the contents of an open letter (an open letter i tell you!) so skewed and then present those miscnceptions in support of his argument that just about every club bar the mighty Hammers are in finacial dire straits. As a Liverpool supporter, I am fully aware that the two Yanks in charge have been nothing but bad news for my club and that their ongoing stint could be potentially diastroous for the club (the open letter says as much). However, i'm not going to be panicked into selling my kids just yet, certainly not on the say so of a know nothing comedian likle yourself. Also have to mention that I noted in a response to one of the Spurs fans above you actually used the argument that West Ham were in the Championship for a portion of the last six years and therefore could not have finished above them. You're using the fact your club was a whole league lower than Spurs to show how much better than them you are?! Also if memory serves me correct, didn't you boys have an open top bus parade after finishing sixth in the Championshiop and squeaking through the play offs? Go academey of football! Man you are priceless. I'm loving this!
So Anon I am wrong about Liverpool being in dire financial straits? Really? So they dont have massive debts that their current lenders are refusing to take on for another term?
I dont like to see any football club struggle, well ok spurs are different but that is nothing against the club itself its tha fans and their "We are a big club, we are we are we are, I'm going to hold my breath till you admit that we are a big club and I dont care if I turn blue!" attitude.
If another group of fans thinks your not a big club it could be jealousy on their part, maybe even two clubs but NO ONE thinks you are a big club,
You yourselves can not even come up with a single decent argument. If you are a big club then why did Berbabtov leave? Why did Keane go to liverpool? Why did Carrick go to ManU? Why did Campbell go to Arsenal?
Its simple because they are big clubs. Proper big clubs.
Like it or not you simply are not one of them, no one is, not you not us not villa or everton or newcastle. So claiming your bigger than some clubs means sod all.
Leyton Orient are a massive club when compared to my local pubs sunday league team.
Its like claiming to be the worlds tallest dwarf or Wales' best formula one driver!
The real problem the one that makes you sick to your stomach is that there is nothing good to seperate you from other midtable teams.
You dont produce great young players, you dont sign superstars, your team isnt packed England internationals (I am not saying ours is), you cant really compete with the big boys, you won one league cup in recent history, you are just a bland faceless club who's only notable achievement is the speed you go through managers, the amount of players you sign who turn out to be shite and the delusion of your fans.
There are not good qualities.
The used to say that WestHam were everybodies second favourite team, that may have changed recently but its never been said about spurs. In fact I reckon people would cheer for an Osama Bin Ladin all star 11 with Gary Glitter up front before they would put on a spurs scarf!
You're attitude of "no one likes us so the must be jealous" come on guys do you really believe that? Do you really think that you are blameless in the abuse you recieve or do you think that if you lot shut your trap abuot being a big club, cracking the top 4, conquering Europe the rest of us might be happy to leave you alone? Or is it a case of if they are throwing abuse at us at least they are paying us attention.
ha ha ha celticflapper start his post addressing a liverpool fan but quickly decends into a rant towards tottenham! LOL...the poor old chap has been attacked and flogged from so many angles he doesn't know whether he is coming or going, or who he is posting for!...let it go old chap. the horse has well and truely bolted, your now just entertainment value!
You alright mate, it's the Pool fan here again. Let me just say that this particular thread is fast becoming my favourite ever - you have made my morning at 'work' absolutely fly by. I would be inclined to nominate you fo some sort of ironic, comedic award if only such a thing exsited. I have never before encountered someone who has been shown to be so outlandishly wrong on so many points and yet carries on unabated and unashamed and all the while taking himself completely seriously! You're like the David Brent of the of blogging universe! In all seriousness though mate, reading through you're numerous entries on this thread, it would appear that the whole point of this little exercise was for you to carry out a bit a Spurs bashing under the guise of providing some earth shattering finacial insight into other PL clubs. As I have said, your credibility on that score has been shot to pieces, but you have given me a right good laugh in the process and for that, I should thank you.
Anon 12.39 I can actually adress two people in one post!
I see I still have no reply as to why you think you are a big club or why you think there is something to be jealous bout!
Anon (12.45) am actually off this week so am happy to provide a distraction for you from the daily grind.
Still not sure if you understand my point about liverpool. What hicks and gillette have done to you is criminal but regardless of you got there the fact remains that you have no one willing to take the clubs debts on.
So let me ask you. What do you think will happen if the june deadline arrives and no one has bought the club or refinanced its debts?
As for the spurs bashing, I am sorry mate but I just cant help myself! Its too much fun.
If you are good at it, and I am, you can get them to argue in circles! and then just keep pointing out why no one likes them, nothing like feeding their paranoia and taping into the deep self loathing that all spurs fans have.
celticflapper, you clearly are not good at argument....all of your above posts which you tried in vein to sound so knowledgable, where systematically, and methodically broken down and shown to be untrue (please see all above posts), you have ridiculed yourself like a true spammer, you even sunk to such depths as to try to counter an argument by saying westham were in a lower league to spurs, at a time period we finished above you so that argument didnt count!!! LOL...you have the gall to try and lecture spurs fans and liverpool fans on football finance while supporting a club thats hanging on by a knifedge because of its less than astute business model. you continue to mock yourself with each post to the point that even your fellow hammers must be cringing. you are truely a jester!
Criticising Spurs for a lack of recent silverware and being forced to sell of their best players?
I've heard it all now!
Since West Ham's last piece of real silverware (30th anniversary next year) Spurs have won the FA Cup three times, the League Cup twice and the UEFA Cup.
6 trophies.
That's more than West Ham's entire history.
As for selling off players like Carrick and Berbatov, we can't compete with Man Utd in terms of wages without completely screwing our finances.
You pay out far more in wages than we do, which is why you're going down the pan.
It's called sensible team management.
You claim that they're in immense money trouble and then ask why we can't compete with them for players!
I think you've answered your own question.
Just like West Ham, you're out of your league.
Give it up, you bitter little man.
ive rarely seen one fan ridicule himself so much, as celtichammer.
Again its a failure to understand the point on your part Anon (13.47).
WestHam do not claim to be a big club. We are not that deluded.
As for the likes of ManU their media rights and global image rights will allow them to service their level of debt.
As for not competing with them for players like Berbatov or Carrick how is that possible?
Are you saying that you are not a big club? You cant be a big club and not be able to compete with a big club like those in the top 4?
so are you or are you not a big club? Which is it?
You cant have it both ways!
So how does all of this end?
An addmission from a spurs fan that you are not a big club!
Well that settles it doesnt it.
It must be kind of cathartic really to finally have that off your chest.
I am really glad I could help you through that.
dont worry there is no charge.
Just knowing I could help a spurs fan to realise that he is nothing special, just another supporter of a midtable club is enough.
No dont thank me, no tears, come on mate keep your chin up. I will be honest I didnt think we would get there, I wondered if it was all worth it but just to have you admit that your spurs, your might spurs, your would be raiders of the top 4, your soon to be champions of Europe, you big club is well rather is not a big club.
You are a brave spurs fan to admit that.
And so the myth of spurs being a big club has finally been laid to rest
No I think I do understand your point, that we have until June to either find ourselves a buyer or some additional lending. I get that just fine. I'm just not sure that you're right based on the 'facts' that you have come out with, only too have them almost instantly discredited! If the sitaution was as critical as you say, then I would expected this to have been reported at least somewhere in the mainstream media given the size of our club and the potential impact that such dire consequences could have for the game in this country. If come June, Liverpool FC announces that it is going into administration I shall return and give you your dues. Fact is, while I'm note really smart enough to havea point by point debate with someone regarding the intricate finacial make up of my club, I suspect that much you say is a combination of conjecture/hyperbole/bs/poorly researched and regurgitated thoery with just a sprinkling of truth. Regarding Spurs, I actually have a bit of a soft spot for them on account of the fact that much of my family, including my two older brothers, support them. As to whetehr or not they'rea hig club, well I guess that boils down to a number of factors and ulitmately depends on your definition of a big club. If we are simply going by CL qualification and recent achievements, then only the current top 4 woul qualify, which I have a problem with as I absolutely refuse to cede that Chelsea are a big club despite their recent successes. If we are taking things like history into account, then I do not think it can denied that Tottenham have a pretty prominent place in the annals of English football. I only really started watching football properly in the eighties when Spurs were made up the so called 'big 5' despite never winning a league title during that time. I remember that the games against Spurs were the ones many of fellow Pool supporters used to look forward to the most. Partly because it was always considered something of a 'glamour game' but also because despite our unparallelled success during this time, I remember that the media would often refer to Tottenham as "the only English team that played real football" which really used to wind us up. Anyway, I digress, for now I am conten to believe that my club is not ina ny imminent danger of folding. Should this change, I will as I have said, return cap in hand, head bowed, ready to apologise.
This gets better and better.
CelticHammer - when you are being whooped from pillar to post, and back again, there's nothing quite like a straw man argument to create a diversion, is there?
What has Tottenham's status as a big club, or not, got to do with this discussion? Not a single Spurs fan on this thread has said anything about Spurs being a big club. You are the ONLY person who's brought the subject up. And you continue to flog it even though no one is biting.
Have a little self respect, man. For your own sake. You know that you have been well and truly battered in the discussion about Spurs' and Liverpool's finances. So try to be as big a man as you can be. Admit it. Let it go. And limp away to lick your wounds.
liverpool fan, i wouldnt worry to much...theres as much chance of liverpool going into administration in 10 weeks, and spurs being bankrupt soon....as there is west ham winning the league next season....celtichammer is a fantasist, a daydream beleiver lol...his posts have very, very little to do with truth, and lots to do with wishful thinking...liverpool and spurs are more successful clubs than west ham in everyway possible...his arguments are as empty as west hams trophy cabinet.
Liverpool fan - don't worry. CelticHmamer is talking as much out of his arse when discussing Liverpool's finances as he is when discussing Tottenham's finances.
If Gillette and Hicks are unable to refinance, what do you suppose will happen? Liverpool into administration? Bollocks. A risible conclusion. And only someone as ignorant about business as CelticHammer could have arrived at it.
Truth of the matter is that Liverpool FC is an extremely healthy business model. And it has the potential for huge growth. If Gillette and Hicks are unable to refinance there isn't a chance in hell that they'll put the club into administration. That would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. Hicks and Gillette may be many things but they aren't that stupid. If the worst comes to the worst for them, they will just put Liverpool up for sale.
And there will be plenty of takers.
Celtichammer you just won't give up will you. I'll give you a lesson about liverpool's finances so you can stop digging your hole. Liverpool before the americans were not in Debt we just could not compete buying players with the likes of chelsea and the mancs, The yanks then bought us out and then got a mortgage to pay for it. Any money we have spent is through earnings sponsors and commercially but we still cannot compete with the other top clubs cos the yanks have not put a penny in. They had to gaurantee their mortgage with assets they have so which is why they are now scrambling to sell other assets so they can hold onto LFC till the summer so they can make more money out of the Arabs. If they do not find the money then they are forced to let go which is exactly what the new buyers want so to get the club at a lower and fairer price. Mark my words that in August Liverpool will again have new owners. Even if the Arabs drop out the fanshare scheme has allready raised the money to buy back the club with a certain number of fans all putting in 5 grand each. Again I will say stop bleating on about Liverpool's finances cos you know zilch.
Hahahaha! Priceless! Loving the way that CelticHammer has been humiliated at every turn on this thread, with everyone laughing at him. Not a single small voice of support for his increasingly shrill and hilariously inaccurate responses. Especially funny that he is so obtuse and doesn't realise the hammering he it taking. Bless!
Wow did you guys stay up all night have a circle jerk? Even with no one to answer you still cant get it right.
I must say I find it amusing that you lot call me bitter when the venom practically drips frome every post.
I guess one late night wont hurt too much, what with you being on school holidays.
Lets run through this shall we.
Firstly YES BG did the exact same thing with WestHam when converting its debts into shares, I didnt say Joe Lewis did anything wrong in what he did in fact every owner of a club does it. Technically the club owes that money to the owner.
In the purchase of any asset, the asset owes the purchase price to the owner. Thas simply a fact.
As for Jow Lewis and his loss in Bear Stearns lets not try and mitigate it by arguing over exchange rates, the deal was done in dollars so lets keep the loss at over 1Billion dollars, which it was.
As for his current wealth, you have obviously failed to notice how the last 6months have seen the steepest drop in the value of the type of assets he holds, in the 3rd quarter of last year the world economy fell off a cliff.
Oh by the way I love the guy who chose only the last 6season to compare league finishes, we were in the championship for 2 of those and got relegated the season before that. You know during the early 1800 before WestHam existed we never finished above you either.
Moving on, you can all pick on little piece of info and try and beat me over the head with it by saying I am clueless. Well guys I'm not, seek all the comfort you want from telling each other how smart you are but when discussing your club and its finances you tend to ignore the bad and only focus on he good. Kind of like Lewis did when he increased his stake in Bear stearns.
You think that a new stadium will make your club more valuable, now Arsenal who have a vastly bigger turnover than you guys have virtually been bankrupted by their new stadium.
WhiteHart lanes value as an asset has dropped significantly in recent years, as has every football ground. You do not have the turnover to finance a new build from cash flow and will have to borrow to build your stadium.
Your owner is not in the position to fund this so that means going to the banks for the money.
Liverpool (again a vastly more valuable club) can not get any bank to fund their new ground. Now in their case it could be argued that without the increase in ticket revenues from such a new groound they will actually default on their current borrowings. If they cant get the money for a 60,000 seater stadium then how will you?
Now I am sure Lewis could convince some of his shall we say....... friends of a similar cultural outlook who dont eat pork....... to lend you the cash but what will that do to you?
You are looking at a minimum 3year build and thats if you can nick some firm who are not already working on 2012 projects.
The debt for the stadium will begin to accumulate 4years before the first paying fan walks through the turnstiles, how will you fund those repayments? You current trunover wont do it. So you are looking at more debt in the form of bridging finance.
Now in its current state spurs is profitable from cash flow, i have never argued that, but continuing to finish midtable while spending the money you are makes it impossible for that to continue. Remember you have a summer coming up with 'Arry boy in charge, you can not even begin to fathom what that man can do with a cheque book during the summer.
Now if your club was as sure of its finances going forward why have they not lower prices to help the fans like we have at Upton Park?
If a new stadium is going to make your club more valuable then why have your board tried so hard to get the 2012 stadium?
Guys you can rant and rave all you like and tell me how wrong I am but sooner or later your going to have to face up to the fact that your club and its owners do not exist inside a recession proof bubble.
Personally I could care less about spurs your belief that anyone who questions your club is bitter is laughable, WestHam fans have nothing to be bitter about when it comes to your club and its managerial merry go round.
Be honest boys whats the real problem here? Its Harry isnt it? It makes you sick to your stomach to see a wheeler dealer, wide boy like him at the helm of the self styled aristocats of English football. You cringe at the thought of him walking your hallowed halls, pissing in the bidet and putting ketchup on the caviar at the board lunches. For years he was your biggest source of fun to poke at us and now your farce of a club has fallen so far, has stooped so low as to have to call in a clown like Redknapp to save you.
You dont realise it yet but you are well on your way to being the next newcastle.
I hope you do get your new ground, I would personally love to hang that albatros around your neck.
Why do you lot spend so much time argueing with Hammers fans anyway? I thought you were a big club! Why are you not argueing with ManU fans? Is it because when you measure yourselves against them you come up a little short?
Why do all football fans hate spurs? It cant be jealousy because all fans dont hate ManU, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelski and they are way way way more successful than you lot.
Do you really think you are a big club? If so then wy? What makes you such a big club when you have to blow hundreds to millions to try and compete with us. so you signed a few of our players! So what! So has virtually every other club in England. ManU have players from WestHam who have gone on to win loads of honours and they dont think it makes them better than us. Isnt the real question why cant you produce these players yourselves? I am a big club should have a decent youth policy so why dont ye? So you won the league cup recently, who cares. Big clubs, like proper big clubs treat it as a run out for their reserves.
How can managers you chased out of white hart lane with pitchforks and burning torches be doing so well at other clubs? Jol has Hamburg playing incredible stuff and Ramos has Real keeping up the pressure on Barca.
Are ye a big club because you can afford big transfer fees? Man Citeh could buy your entire club just to give Robinho somewhere to park his car. Are you a big club based on attendence? Well no, sunderland get more at a home game as do Newcastle and obviously the big 4 so that rules that out then.
Maybe if you say you are a big club often enough it will come through! You know click your heels three times and say "theres no place like fourth theres no place like forth!" and see if it comes through.
Maybe just maybe you are not a big club, not by any meaningful measure anyway and your selfloathing your delusions of grandeur and your need to believe that your club has not become a cess pit of money hungry foreign mercenaries, managerial musical chairs and ever falling league performances forces you to shout to any and all who will listen that you are a big club.
You keep telling yourself that and us and all other football fans will continue to laugh at you.
You need to believe that WestHam fans are bitter, you need to believe that we are jealous because it validates you but the truth is a WestHam would trade Johnathon Spector for anything you have and thats saying something because I would swap that guy for a plasma TV for the spare room in my place in Marbella. There is nothing you have that we want, not at the price you have to pay by being a spurs fan.
The article that Hammersfan put up from my posts doesnt even mention you, go back and check the posts they are under the Luton town thread. So why is it only you lot who come screaming on here and stay up all night having an arguement with someone who is tucked up in bed!
Me thinks, the deep down inside, right next to the sense of shame from the last time you did karioke, tucked away where no one can see it is the realisation that your nothing more than a midtable team that has lost its identity and become just another team making up the numbers in the premiership.
Anon (liverpool fan) this isnt hearsay, conjecture or bs! Have a look for yourself
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1167535/Hicks-debt-woes-hit-Benitez-plans-Liverpool.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1167535/Hicks-debt-woes-hit-Benitez-plans-Liverpool.html
http://www.anfield-online.co.uk/lfc-news/2008/americans-transfer-debt-on-to-liverpool-fc/
Two of those are liverpool sources.
Look mate today of all days, one day before the anniversary, I have no wish to have a go at Liverpool. As an Irishman I have always had an afinity for the club, so many great Irish players built great careers there.
I think what Hicks and Gillette have done to your club should never been allowed to happen. The FA are just as much to blame for this. No purchase of a club should be allowed to go through unless the prospective owners can show that they can afford to buy the club without leveraging massive debt.
For all of those who are having a go at WestHam about our finances our next set of accounts will show the club has in fact been proitable the last two seasons. The delay in publishing the accounts was down to the settlement with the blunts being included in the last set of accounts. If you need more evidence of our stability, virtually all of or first team have signed long term deals with the club as has Zola with Clarke due to do so.
Oops! Didn't mean to c&p CelticHammers' entire rant above!
CelticHammer wrote:
"For all of those who are having a go at WestHam about our finances our next set of accounts will show the club has in fact been proitable the last two seasons"
The last two seasons? Err.......nope. 2006-07, West Ham reported losses of circa £22 million.
To all of those who have said I was wrong about liverpool here are some questions for you.
Did RBS and Wachovia refuse to refinance the club in January?
Did Gillette and Hicks remoove the personal assets that had previously guaranteed the debt?
Have any bank that have been approached shown any willingness to refinance the club?
Have any serious potential buyers come forward?
Has Keith Harris (the biggest broker of football club sales) said that Liverpool are struggling to meet their debts?
If the club can not refinance and is not sold by the end of june what will happen?
Will the bank turn a blind eye and just let the debt slide?
Not only do the club have to refinance the existing debt they also have to take on additional debts to pay upcoming expenses and transfer fees.
So for all those spurs fans who have so happily stated that they are as financially secure as liverpool you might want to think again.
Is being a pedantic wanker part of being a spurs fan? WestHam have been operating profitably for the season 07-08 and again for 08-09 to me that is the last two season.
just when i thought it couldnt get any worse ( or better should i say) celtichammer pulls one last rabbit out of the hat.....he uses the daily mail as eveidence for the rubbish he spouts!!!!!! this is hilarious!...the daily mail, the worst offender of fantasy storytelling and spin in sports journalisim....the ONLY national newspaper actually banned from white hart lane for blatant lies and fabrication...and celtichammer uses them to cross refrence??? now i know for 100% fact you are an utter imbecile who has finally "hammered" the final nail into his own coffin
The americans buying us was unfortunate but can you blame them no! I hate them for it but at the end of the day they are buisnessmen they only come to make a quick buck. The credit crunch came at the right time for us as now there is not a chance that RBS can be seen to be lending to to fellas to buy a football club. Like i said Liverpool are in a self sustanable position and once the new stadium is finally built we will then be able to compete at the top of the market but until then the manager has to wheel and deal like he has done for the last 5 years. Don't get me wrong our situation would alter dramataclly if we fail to qualify for Champions league but just like before we were in the Cl we would learn to survive as this club has always been run the right way. Which is why originally I take offence from someone having a go at liverpool players for not paying the wages of players from other clubs that have been shamefully run. Again especially clubs who get 10,000 supporters but then a trip to Wembley last weekend and another 30,000 appear. If these thirty thousand were loyal to their club then they may not have just been banished to non league football.
Are Spurs a big club?
Certainly bigger than West Ham.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're predicting the results of West Ham's next two financial reports, aren't you?
Is that actually based on something or is it another flight of fantasy?
You've still got a massive wage bill, your sponsor went bankrupt and had to be replaced on the cheap and I can't see how you've generated masses of extra revenue.
Please enlighten us all.
Nice change of subject there CelticHammer, you really do have some front ffs, you have 100% been completely and utterly slaughtered on the finances arguments regarding both Liverpool and Tottenham, so you change the subject. LOL
Te very fact that you are so bitter and twisted about Tottenham says it all.
Tottenham 17 Trophies to West Ham's 4 LOL
In English football only Four clubs have won more trophies than Tottenham Hotspur.
Only Two English clubs have a higher all time average attendance than Tottenham.
Only Four English clubs have a bigger annual turnover than Tottenham.
Totenham have over 22,000 fans on their season ticket waiting list despite having the most expensive tickets in the country, West Ham don't have a season ticket waiting list, they cant even fill Upton Park up on a regular basis.
West Ham got a crowd of 10,055 earlier this season, talk about being small time, Tottenham on the other hand got a 19,000+ attendance for a youth cup 1/4 final tie, the very next night after a league game v Boro.
Tottenham Hotspur have the 7th biggest sponsorship deal in world football, for a minimum of £34 million, West Ham "had" a deal for £7.5 million. LOL
Tottenham Hotspur are starting work on a new £30 million training/academy ground this month, and plans will soon be submitted for our lovely new £300+ million stadium, hotel, supermarket etc complex.
Don't worry though spammer it is quite understandable why you are so very bitter and twisted about all things Spurs.
Tottenham are not as big as Manchester United, Liverpool and Arsenal, but we are certainly a big club, whether you like that fact or not, our History, our fan base, and our huge financial clout, should tell even the most ignorant of West Ham (CelticHammer) fans that.
RBS - Don't finance the yank's - It's what every liverpool fan wants. Trust me celtichammer and turn it in. The club was almost sold last week but some greedy b***ards are still holding on possibly to see the outcome of liverpools progress in the league and CL as to try and keep price of club at a more profitable outlook. Why do you Think there are now Baseball and Ice hockey teams up for sale. RBS - don't finance the yanks.
well said essexyid...celtichammer has ridiculed himself beyond reproach. But like a mad rabid hound, he wont let it go...his every argument is disected like a lab rat and shown to be utter nonsense that has no place in the realms of reality...he is like a drunk old vagabond who wont let go of the bottle, even though the bottle has caused his destrution. Its slapstick comedy for the virtual world to laugh at.
So basically essexyid what you are saying is that you are NOT a big club but you are a bigger club than us (league position not withstanding last season or this). We do not claim to be a big club, so whats your point?
Maybe I should go find a forum for Oxford United fans and start lording it over them about how big a club WestHam are compared to them!
So stark raving is your paranoia, yours and the rest of you spurs fan buddies that you have stayed on a WestHam forum since yesterday trying to convince me that you are a big club! That says a lot more about you than it does about me mate. So who is jealous of who then?
Tell you what lets decide how big a club is based on the number of current England internationals who learned their trade at a club shall we?
Seems just as fair a way as who has the bigger stadium.
We have, Rio, Terry, Johnson, Carrick, Lampard, and Joe Cole. Thats 6! That doesnt include Green, Parker or Upson who currently play for us or Mark Noble who could well be in the next world cup squad. In fact I reckon thats more than any other club in England.
Well that settles it then. West Ham are the biggest club in England.
just to make it even worse, the zombie that is celtichammer, the only person on here who mentioned "big club" and breaking into the top 4, when talking about spurs earlier in the post, now starts trying to attack spurs fans on here for saying we are a big club!....the clown goes on, on, shaming himself to oblivion, for everyone, ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE, to laugh at.
"we are certainly a big club" - EssexYid
"So basically essexyid what you are saying is that you are NOT a big club" - CelticHammer
You're a bit dim, aren't you CH?
"Tell you what lets decide how big a club is based on the number of current England internationals who learned their trade at a club shall we?"
Why?
What on Earth does that have to do with anything?
Are Arsenal and Man Utd small clubs then?
West Ham are just a medium sized, mediocre club that are followed by an average number of Essex-based, cab driving, BNP members.
Your bitter rants about Spurs are quite amusing though, as we all get to laugh at you being ripped to bits.
Keep it up!
It's the Pool Supporter again. My God dude! You really have been taking quite the hammering. This is now starting to get beyond funny.... although I am still laughing to be fair. I see a few of my fellow supporters have been saying what I suspect is much closer to the truth, that the chances of Liverpool FC folding are very slim (and certainly not in June). It's been pretty much universal knowledge that a Dubai based group has been trying to buy the club for quite some time, so, whilst I again accept that my knowelege of all things finance related is not what you would call substantial, it strikes me that if the club were seriously on the brink of collapse then the Yanks would have sold in a heartbeat rather than playing hardball. Similarly, if we do threaten to go belly up, the club would presumably be available for a knock down price to those same buyers. Finally, mate your hatred for Spurs looks like it's beginning to consume you and has turned this thread into a bit of mish mash, even though it didn't really make that much sense to begin with! I don't even hate Everton that much. Hell, my (Spurs supporting)brothers don't even hate Arsenal as much! As a West Ham/Celtic supporter (which I am assuming you are)why the hell are you going to such lengths to slam a team which neither of your clubs, to the best of my knowledge, share a rivalry with? Go for a walk man, for the sake of your own sanity.
Essexyid I can not find any genuine method of measuring how you are a big club so I just figured I would do the same as you and make them up.
There is a reason the term The Big 4 was coined, if you are in that group then you are a big club.
If you're not then quite simply you are not a big club.
If you are not in the Champions League you are not a big club.
If you are not in the hunt for League titles you are not a big club.
If the top 4 can help themselves to your best players you are not a big club.
You yourself said you are not as big as ManU, Liverpool or Arsenal (not sure why you left out Chelski) they are considered the big clubs, if you are not as big as them then you are not a big club.
I really wish that this site allowed me to break out the crayons and draw you a picture but it doesnt so yet again I will tell you YOU ARE NOT A BIG CLUB!
Top 4 = Big Club
If you can put spurs into that equation I will happily withdraw any previous statement I have made which contradicts that.
Where to start, CelticHammer? There's just so much wrong about your rant - and not just the fact that you are clearly suffering from the most enormous chip on shoulder about Spurs. Only way to tackle this is to take it little bit by little bit:
You wrote:
"Firstly YES BG did the exact same thing with WestHam when converting its debts into shares, I didnt say Joe Lewis did anything wrong in what he did in fact every owner of a club does it."
So why were you trying to make out that this is something particular to Spurs and that it means that the club is in imminent financial peril?
You wrote:
"As for his current wealth, you have obviously failed to notice how the last 6months have seen the steepest drop in the value of the type of assets he holds, in the 3rd quarter of last year the world economy fell off a cliff."
Indeed. But you are claiming that Lewis' fortune has shrunk from $2.5 billion to $0.5 billion in the last six months. Bear in mind that the $2.5 billion estimate was AFTER taking into account the Bear Stearns collapse. Are you really trying to convince everyone that the investment sectors targeted by Tavistock Group (quite diverse, by the way) are now worth, on average, a mere 20% of their value six months ago? Utter nonsense.
You wrote:
"I love the guy who chose only the last 6season to compare league finishes, we were in the championship for 2 of those and got relegated the season before that. You know during the early 1800 before WestHam existed we never finished above you either."
Hahahahaha! The reason why he chose the last six seasons is that you, in your typically ignorant manner, had claimed that West Ham "keep on finishing" above Spurs. For that to be remotely true, you would expect that West Ham would have finished above Spurs more than once in the past six years, wouldn't you think?
And I could barely contain my guffaws when I read that you didn't think that those six years counted because West Ham had spent two of them in a lower division. Think about it, son.......you're trying to argue that West Ham "keep on finishing" above Spurs but then complain that it's not fair that West Ham were, in fact, a whole division below Spurs. Duh!
Nevertheless, if the past six years isn't enough for you, how about West Ham's entire history? Since West Ham joined the Football League, they have finished above Spurs on a mere 22 occasions and below them on 50 occasions. End of argument.
You wrote:
"You think that a new stadium will make your club more valuable, now Arsenal who have a vastly bigger turnover than you guys have virtually been bankrupted by their new stadium."
I suggest that you take a look at Arsenal's most recent audited accounts. They are in debt, certainly. But they are also in rude financial health. Being in debt is not necessarily, by definition, a bad thing. Debt is simply one of a variety of financing mechanisms used by well run companies when they need or wish to grow. Far more important than looking at debt in isolation is to look at net assets. And Arsenal's net asset position is very robust. It is also important to look at profit and loss. Arsenal are making enormous profits since moving to the new stadium. Without looking up the precise figure, I believe that the most recent accounts showed profit in the region of £40 -60 million. They can comfortably service their debt (which amounts to annual repayments of about £20 million). And they are also sitting on a valuable asset in the Highbury Square development. Even if they don't sell the properties in a favourable market, they will clear a huge proportion of their remaining debt.
You wrote:
"You do not have the turnover to finance a new build from cash flow and will have to borrow to build your stadium."
Why and how on earth would Spurs, or any club, finance a new stadium "from cash flow"? Seriously, do you understand anything about finance?
You wrote:
"Your owner is not in the position to fund this so that means going to the banks for the money. Liverpool (again a vastly more valuable club) can not get any bank to fund their new ground. Now in their case it could be argued that without the increase in ticket revenues from such a new groound they will actually default on their current borrowings. If they cant get the money for a 60,000 seater stadium then how will you?"
Ridiculous comparison with Liverpool. The reason why they can't get funding from the banks for their new stadium is that Gillette and Hicks are already leveraged to their eyeballs. Bloody hell! You really are dim witted!
You wrote:
"Now I am sure Lewis could convince some of his shall we say....... friends of a similar cultural outlook who dont eat pork....... to lend you the cash but what will that do to you?"
Why not just say "Jewish"? Have you got something to hide?
You wrote:
"You are looking at a minimum 3year build and thats if you can nick some firm who are not already working on 2012 projects.
The debt for the stadium will begin to accumulate 4years before the first paying fan walks through the turnstiles, how will you fund those repayments? You current trunover wont do it. So you are looking at more debt in the form of bridging finance."
Spurs' strategy for funding the new stadium has already been posted on this thread. It includes:
1. Naming rights deal.
2. Seats rights deal.
3. Property sales.
4. Share issue.
5. Debt finance.
Nos. 2, 3, and 4 should raise, at a guess, some £150 million. Which would leave Spurs needing £100 million of debt finance. Over a 20 year period, that would require repayments of less than £10 million per annum. And most (if not all) of that £10 million will already be guaranteed by the naming rights deal. That's before you even begin to calculate the massive extra revenue from the new stadium (£20 million + per annum).
You wrote:
"Remember you have a summer coming up with 'Arry boy in charge, you can not even begin to fathom what that man can do with a cheque book during the summer."
Perhaps you should remember that Spurs actually have competent people in charge of their finances and not a mug like Terry Brown.
You wrote:
"Now if your club was as sure of its finances going forward why have they not lower prices to help the fans like we have at Upton Park?"
Because, unlike West Ham, Spurs are confident of selling out for Premiership games regardless of the recession. It's called supply and demand.
You wrote:
"If a new stadium is going to make your club more valuable then why have your board tried so hard to get the 2012 stadium?"
They investigated all the options. It would have been a huge dereliction of duty for them not to have done so.
As to the rest of your rant, it has nothing to do with the discussion. As has already been pointed out, it's nothing more than a straw man argument. No Spurs fan on here has been bragging about how big a club Spurs is so why bring it up?
It is quite amusing to see you cracking up under the weight of that gigantic chip on your shoulder, though.
Essexyid lets try and make this simple enough for even you.
Simply answer the following
Have spurs ever finished in the top 4 of the premier league?
Have spurs ever challenged for the premier league title?
Have spurs ever played in the champions league?
Lets even use an easier yardstick to measure
Have spurs always finished in the top 6 of the premier league?
Have spurs always finished in the top 8 of the premier league?
Have spurs always finished in the top half of the premier league?
I dont want anything else but those questions answered
If you are a big club then you can answer those questions correctly
What a total moron.
Only 4 big clubs in England?
Then that must make West Ham a petty, insignificant, tiny speck of a club.
Have you ever won the league?
Have you ever won any trophy with the word 'league' in it's title, even?
Have you been ever-present in the Premier League?
Have you won a trophy in the last quarter of a century?
Are you a West Ham mug?
I just wanted to give you a question that you could answer positively to.
LOL at celtic "oh fuck ive really gone and done it now" hammer.....he had been ripped to shreds...annialated.....he started off by spouting on about finance yesterday, and is now trying to shift the goal posts again, in light of the fact he has been taken apart on every level....this really is comedy factor. LOL
Hahahaha! I love the fact that dunderhead CelticHammer continues to mug himself in public! This quote in particular:
"So stark raving is your paranoia, yours and the rest of you spurs fan buddies that you have stayed on a WestHam forum since yesterday trying to convince me that you are a big club!"
No CelticHammer, you poor deluded fellow, it is YOU who has been trying (unsuccessfully) to convince everyone else that Spurs fans have been trying to convince you that Spurs are a big club.
Straw man arguments are the preserve of those who have been well and truly arse whipped in an argument.
Come on guys, let's try to keep the debate above slinging insults. You may not agree with each other but calling your opponent "dunderhead" etcetera just puts a question mark against your own intelligence. Stay on the argument, don't try to belittle the advocate!
celtichammer is this a fetish u have?.....the virtual beating you have taken is immense...yet you continue to beg for more, like a mad monk chastising himself. just leave go mate, we all hate taking defeat, particularly when we initially think we have the skills to pays the bills, as you clearly did when you originally started venting your bile....but im sorry to tell you old chap, you have been beat up from the feet up.....its time to let it go.
Hammersfan is back trying to play devils ad now when he was as delluded as celtichammer. Watch out Redmen he gave us the hillsborough taunt's after losing the battle last night so get ready for it, it'l go suttin like: MUURRRDDDDEEEEEERRRRREEEEEEES.
Anon 16.56, that is in incredibly bad taste for a Liverpool fan. My comments related to the contradiction of Liverpool fans not buying The Sun and Liverpool FC taking Murdoch's millions from the Sky deal. I did not, and would never, uses the term "murderers" in relation to Hillsborough. I don't want a personal apology mate but i think you owe it to the 96 for cheapening their memory by trying to make their deaths into a partisan issue. I was talking finance, you are talking human life. Think!
There is a reason Chelski. ManU, Liverpool and Arsenal are referred to as the big 4, they are the only 4 clubs in England who are capable of competing with the biggest clubs in Europe.
If you have to try and justify or explain why you are a big club then you are not.
Hammerfan dont worry about trying to police their insults mate it doest bother me, I am sure them and all the bebo buddies know just how hard they really are.
You lot can sling insults all you want but you know you are perennial underachievers check this out just so you know its not just me who feels this way
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1135774/Hey-big-spenders--Sportsmails-guide-teams-squad-costs.html?ITO=1490
I know I know any newspaper that doesnt say spurs are brilliant are just gutter journalists who have a grudge against you.
That said it does seem to cast doubt on the whole "big club" mantle you so proudly claim.
Oh then go check this out
http://community.footballpools.com/football-reports/achievers/premier-league/
This is a study of every team in the League since 1992 and it list spurs as the second worst performing team currently in the top flight.
go on, go have a look.
This was actually put together by the football pools not really known as a hot bed of anti semetic right wing journalism but I am sure I wont have to wait long for you to disagree!
celtichammer nobody has insulted you....you have come out with some ridiculous posts about club finance, directed at both liverpool and tottenham, your points and arguments were then taken apart...point by point, and shown to be completely inaccurate....your are the architect of your own doom. and in the process have become a focal point of comedy on this forum.
17.19, I'm not laughing. Smiling at the quality of the banter but not laughing. This is what debate is about isn't it?
celtichammer quoting various newspapers on various subjects, will do nothing to redeem yourself...people are now just coming on here to laugh at you!
any notion of serious debate was lost along time ago!
I am sorry maybe I have gotten a bit confused here.
Are spurs a big club or not?
Why do half of you claim you are, some of you claim you are not as big as other clubs but bigger than some like WestHam and a few of you reckon no spurs fan has ever said that they are a big club?
No one has yet managed to convince me (or themselves if they are honest) of why spurs deserve to be called a big club.
All people can do is tell me I am wrong for saying you are not a big club but yet you can not tell me why I am wrong or why you should be considered equal to the likes of ManU, Chelski, Liverpool or Arsenal.
ok we can all break out the calculators and have a look at your books, likewise we can look at the debts of the top 4 clubs both to banks and owners and claim they are being woefully mismanaged.
You can even go as far as to say that if Platini gets his way these clubs will be penalised for their debts by exclusion from top European competition but lets take the universal measuring stick, success.
When you look at spurs torphy record since the premier league began are they a big club?
well..........................?
LOL........celtichammer, my poor, poor old chap...nobody is trying to convince you of anything...but you are convincing all of us that you have a bright future in comedy.
Anon (17.39) so you are saying you are not trying to convince me that you are a big club? so you're not a big club then? Well that settles it then!
celtichammer please keep digging LOL!!!....you have nearly reached austrailia...no doubt you will now return in 10 mins with various links to newspapers and stories! LOL...you are outrageous in the way you humiliate yourself...my god man, show some decorum.
LOL? LOL? Seriously! What are you 12! Braying like a donkey isnt an arguement it just shows you can not back up your claims.
Let me try you way of posting.
ANON!.............!!...!.....LOL i was ROTL and nearly PSML when I saw that you couldnt make and arguement!!...$...%%%!....! Me and my myspace mates (I have 7now, I'm telling you I'm worn out) all Lol'd when you made it look like spurs are not a big club!..!..!!
Hows that? Or should I have used some avatars?
Blimey!
You have to hand it to CelticHammer. He's nothing if not persistent - though that might owe rather more to him not being the sharpest tool in the box (to put it mildly) than it does to any genuine doggedness.
CelticHammer - perhaps you can answer the following questions for us.....
Why are you so determined to continue with this diversionary tactic? Why are you banging on about the Spurs big club or not argument? You know as well as everyone else who has followed this thread that it is you (and you alone) who brought it up in the first place and you alone who wishes to persist with it. Why, instead of trying to change the discussion, can you not simply admit that you have been exposed as risibly wrong in almost every respect about Liverpool's and Spurs' finances? Why not just be a man about it (assuming, of course, that you are a man)?
Hammersfan the murderer thing has nothing to do with Hillsborough it's what bitter rival fan's chant to us regarding Heysel where 39 innocent people also lost their lives. But unlike the s*n and south yorkshire police even though i was only 10 at the time and not there at Heysel along with thousands and probably every other Liverpool supporter we hold our hands up every day of the week and admit it was our fault. We were to blame. I apolagise for any offence but i'm just a bit miffed at you bringing the whole s*n thing into it when you need to know all the facts and why we talk or buy from this or them etc.
I am seriously starting to like this guy. He's a bit like the slightly weird kid in class who does impressions or tells jokes to make himself popular. The other kids then in turn do laugh at him, not on account of his impressions/jokes being that good, but rather for some quite sad unrelated reason such as he's quite funny looking or peculiar sounding. You temper any guilt you may feel about laughing at him by telling yourself, well it is what he wants and at least he is getting some of the attention he so desperately craves. During the course of this process you actually start to feel some affinity towards the poor, odd, ugly little bugger. Not enough to let him be in your gang mind, but you might let him be lookout whilst you smoke a crafty fag behind the bike shed.
celtichammer has constantly tried to redeem himself by shifting the goalposts...but as the last poster pointed out, this is all celtichammers doing. he has made a fool of himself not just to liverpool and spurs fans, but also to all the west ham fans who have stumbled across this thread...has you noticed the complete lack of support from other hammers? does that not say something to you?....your trying to flog a dead horse, and are reduced to laughing stock!
18.06 Fair enough mate, I misunderstood.
being a big club, like you said Celtic, is relative (i.e. leyton orient to a pub team etc) but you seem to have shot yourself in the foot by saying that West Ham will continue to finish above Spurs in the league thus insinuating that West Ham are a bigger club than Spurs. If this is so then why do you bring up:
"If you are a big club then why did Berbabtov leave? Why did Keane go to liverpool? Why did Carrick go to ManU? Why did Campbell go to Arsenal?"
Hmm let's go back a few years... who did Defoe leave to join Spurs? And Kanoute? What about Carrick? Surely their transfers, regardless of your forays into the lower leagues, poor financial situation, footballing history (or lack of) etc etc, prove that they, as do many football fans across the globe, see Spurs as a bigger club than West Ham.
However, this is not to say Spurs are "A" big club, its to say that in comparison to other clubs, such as West Ham, they are considered the bigger club.
This thread is going down in legend! My congratulations to all who made it possible from our host Hammersfan to the numerous posters with their beautifully timed, impecacbly constructed, retorts. However, the person I would most like to congrtatulate, is the unwitting and hapless star of this little comedy episode that has so brightened up my first day back at work, CelticHammer. Tek a boo son..tek a boo!
celtichammer, the fight is over, the 10 count given, the crowds are even leaving the arena, but your still swinging, let it go man...cease to abase yourself further.
N14 Spur I have never claimed that WestHam are a big club. As for transfers, we have signed Parker, Bowyer, Dyer and Solano from Newcastle does that make us a bigger club than them?
I dont think so.
Lets not overstate things, we had two seasons in the championship, not exactly plumbing the depths of non league football.
Spurs chose to call themselves a big club and therefor draw comparison with genuine big clubs where they fall a long way short.
You truly are a WUM CelticHammer, every single time that you are proven wrong, and let's be honest that is dozens of times over so far, you blatantly ignore the facts and fail to respond when you are found out time after time, but you then do a swerve and change the argument, very selective aren't you.
According to you a big club is based on how "many England players" they have produced, grow up ffs man, are you another of those West Ham morons who actually believe that West Ham Won the world cup.
The simple truth is that Tottenham are not currently a big team, but we are a big club, Chelsea are not really a big club they are a rich club everything is based on money most of which is not generated by the club itself.
Tottenham have a bigger and better history, and a bigger fan base than Chelsea.
Go onto cfc.net and ask them for yourself, they openly admitted that after the League Cup final last year where Tottenham totally outnumbered Chelsea's fans, they were getting crowds of 7,000 as little time ago as 1994 in the top flight of English football.
A big club is not just based on recent or current league position, It is based on having a big fan base, financial clout and historical success all of which Tottenham have, but West Ham obviously don't, or did you perhaps think that Manchester United were not a big club when they went 26 years without winning the league, before Fergie arrived.
Well hammersfan i'm glad you missunderstood cos that shows that hammersfans don't sing it. Anyway news in the last 5 minutes says celine dion is about to do due dill.. on the montreal canadians so it looks like that it won't be long now till Tom and Jerry have to put their own clout back to RBS and then with a click of your fingers our yankee owners will pay of the mortgage 24 years early! Hope we aint fell out over Luton bleedin Town.
Essexyid Preston, Wolves and Blackpool were all a bit tasty in the 30's does that make them big clubs?
As for having more fans at a final than cheslki and therefor being a bigger club doesnt that simply go back to the argument Hammersfan made which so many of the posters slated him for
"Essexyid Preston, Wolves and Blackpool were all a bit tasty in the 30's does that make them big clubs?"
Celtic, once again its all relative! At the moment Spurs are bigger than West Ham and many other clubs due to some of the issues that have been covered (financial situation, footballing history, etc) but also other clubs are bigger than Spurs and thus bigger than any club that Spurs are bigger than. However, maybe in 10, 20, or 30 years, Spurs could be finishing top of the Premiership each season, and West Ham could be in League 2 - would you still then try an claim that Spurs are not the bigger club? Alternatively it could be the other way round in which case West Ham would be the bigger club - it's all relative!
But if we take that 6 year figure used earlier, we can safely say that Spurs have been a bigger club in recent footballing history than West Ham. This figure could also be extended to include more past years an decades. It could also, if you would like, be shortened to just this season whereby West Ham would appear to be the bigger club due to league position.
Notice how I said "appear to be" as once again if you really want to try and measure a clubs stature, then you need to take a lot more things into account than just current league position.
Essexyid - don't humour him, mate.
He wants this to become a discussion about Spurs fans thinking that they support a big club - purely because he has been so embarrassed by the way he was exposed in all the financial discussions.
So don't bite, mate. Watching him desperately try to divert everyone's attention from his ignorance and arrogance has been far too amusing to waste.
"we have signed Parker, Bowyer, Dyer and Solano from Newcastle does that make us a bigger club than them?"
You bought their crocks and their dross, so clearly not.
West Ham are renowned for producing young, promising players that they sell to bigger, better clubs for buttons and then buy their castoffs in return.
Even a blinkered lunatic like yourself would have to admit that Spurs are a much bigger club than West Ham, surely?
I Know exactly what he is doing, I have stated many times about how he conveniently changes the subject, but every time he does it, that just proves that he has no further reasoned argument to offer.
He is a blatant liar and also a spin doctor, as well as being totally ill informed regarding football matters mate, it is cruel really a bit like poking a wounded animal with a stick. LOL
He talks yet more crap talking about Preston etc, they Won 4 trophies in their entire history, and currently don't have a pot to piss in, but he in his wisdom compares them to Tottenham, who have won 17 trophies, and are One the richest clubs in the world, good comparison there CeltcHammer, yo really are stupid in the extreme aren't you.
Tottenham have won a lot more trophies than, Wolves, Preston and Blackpool added together you fool, or can you not grasp that fact.
Preston have only won 4 trophies in total, and Blackpool have in fact won just 1 trophy in their history, but they were "a bit tasty" of course they were CelticHammer, yet again highlighting your total lack of football knowledge.
If you added all of those clubs fans up, Tottenham's fan base would still be vastly bigger.
It would be the same with finances, add all of those clubs annual incomes up, and add West Ham's to it fo good measure, and Tottenham would still have a bigger annual turnover, got it now have you CelticHammer.
celtichammer has been crucifed to the cross.....its feels like watching the roman soldier who goes over and sticks the spear in his ribs just to make sure!
celtichammer
you sir are a wretched cretin, who has not an ounce of humility in your body, you have been found out with your blatant lies, and still you try to wriggle out of the argument you started, by changing the subject. im glad you have been whipped like a muel on this thread, as never there was a court jester who deserved it more.
You know for a bunch of people who are so quick to cry foul if ye even suspect any religious abuse you're pretty quick to dish it out.
As a Catholic I am apalled by the references to crucifixion, not to mention the recorded abuse of Joesephs and Marys donkey!
It shows a blatant persecution of religious freedom and has no place in this site.
For shame on you!
Anyway boys I am off out to watch 2 BIG teams play some champions league football but will be happy to pick this up in the morning.
Keep your posts coming I am sure that we wil break Hammersfan's record for longest thread! And who knows I might finally find otu why you think you are a big club.
Night fellas
As I always say before hitting the vino
Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu Melekh ha‑olam, bo're p'ri ha‑gafen
LOL Celtic, we are cut from the same cloth mate. Keep it up!
credit to Hammersfan for letting this thread run, we all seemed to get a laugh from it, the tpical west ham forum would of ended with "fuck off jew" and posts deleted. but fairplay to hammersfan. credit where it is due
Cheers mate. All welcome here. At the end of the day, we are football fans, whoever we support. Keep looking in and email an article if you fancy taking a headline billing.
cheers
How the frig do you define how a club is big or not? Yeah obviously you've got your "big 4", but apart from that who really gives a shit? West Ham are 3 points above Spurs, Spurs keep beating West Ham. We'll see at the end of the season and look at the league table and then decide who's better than the other.
Who gives a sh**? Unfortunate phrase when it comes to Tottenham, given that's what cost them "Champions League Glory" three seasons back!
The argument about who is a big club and who is not should rather be a question of who's a good club and who's not. I mean you have your Burnley's Wolves Notts forests and Sheff Wed's who all can still boast a healthy capacity. Also there are not enough prizes in Football to say winners our big and the losers are not. For me the defenition of a big club is sustaining a certain degree of class ,winning mentality sportsmanship and most importantly capacity as when a team were at their peak, I'm a Liverpool fan and all the mentioned clubs as well as Spurs and West Hams are certainly big clubs. For me though I just cannot stand clubs like Luton Town. Trying to gain advantage buy installing a plassy pitch, Banning of away fans, Dodgy dealings with agents, unloyal decreased number of fans and the cheek to publisize begging another better run club to pay the wages of your players. Then being pompus enough to slag that team off.
Those two big teams your watching tonight...and the other two "big" teams...Tottenham's record 08/09
Chelsea 1 - 1 Tottenham Hotspur
Arsenal 4 - 4 Tottenham Hotspur
Tottenham Hotspur 2 - 1 Liverpool
Tottenham Hotspur 4 - 2 Liverpool(CC)
Tottenham Hotspur 0 - 0 Manchester United
Manchester United 2 - 1 Tottenham Hotspur (FA Cup)
Tottenham Hotspur 0 - 0 Arsenal
Manchester United 0 - 0 Tottenham Hotspur(L pens)
Tottenham Hotspur 1 - 0 Chelsea
Tottenham have been doing well against the big clubs - look at their results against West Ham thi season! ; 0
Yes that is right, a big club like West Ham who currently and historically don't have a pot to piss in.
West Ham who earlier this season attracted a crowd of 10,055 LOL
West Ham, who haven't won a trophy since 1980 almost 30 years ago.
West Ham United are truly MASSIVE !!!
Oy, without me, my son and his mate, that crowd would have been 10,052! It was Macclesfield at home in the Not Worth Winning Which Is Why Tottenham Win It Cup!
How dare Celtichammer bring up leyton orient. They are better run than west ham
Come on the Os. Sounds kind of rude doesn't it?
Oh dear CelticHammer, you posted a number of poorly researched (and perhaps even made up) points about the finances of (in particular) Tottenham Hotspur and then when people with far more knowledge came along and pointed out the facts and asked you to back up your own points you quickly switched to a 'Spurs aren't a big club' argument to try to cover up the fact that you had been shown up and embarassed.
To come back to your, again poorly thought out points about THFC's finances and specifically the new stadium. You said:
"You think that a new stadium will make your club more valuable, now Arsenal who have a vastly bigger turnover than you guys have virtually been bankrupted by their new stadium.
WhiteHart lanes value as an asset has dropped significantly in recent years, as has every football ground. You do not have the turnover to finance a new build from cash flow and will have to borrow to build your stadium.
Your owner is not in the position to fund this so that means going to the banks for the money.
Liverpool (again a vastly more valuable club) can not get any bank to fund their new ground. Now in their case it could be argued that without the increase in ticket revenues from such a new groound they will actually default on their current borrowings. If they cant get the money for a 60,000 seater stadium then how will you?"
Well for a start you have to first consider that Arsenal have a vastly bigger turnover largely BECAUSE of their new stadium..... Revenue's of £3 million per match at the Emirates compared to £1 million per match for Tottenham at WHL. Even with the bare minimum of only 20 home games per season that is £40 million of extra revenue per season.
In terms of funding Arsenal's stadium build project was a lot more complicated than the one that Spurs will have. As part of Arsenal's project they had to resite a refuse centre (cost £60 million) and also transport and build a bridge including moving the materials over a live major railway line. They also had a number of businesses to re-site. All of these factors pushed up the cost significantly. The stadium only cost of building the Emirates was £220 million. Since that stadium was built however the cost of raw materials (steel, cement, oil) and management/labour from the construction industy is far cheaper due to the recession. It is therefore safe to assume that Spurs' stadium will cost around £200 million. How will Spurs pay for this?....
Well the plans for the new stadium include a 70,000 square foot supermarket with 450 parking spaces, a 150 room hotel and 450 residential homes. I would expect Spurs to sell off the land with PP granted for the supermaket to one of the major chains (Sainsburys are already a long way down the line in terms of negotiations for this) and then for them to do the same for the hotel and the homes. The rest of the finances will come from the stadium naming rights, share issues and, yes, probably some debt. My guess is that THFC will not have to take on more than around £80 million of debt to build the new stadium - and with a £40 million a year (plus) increase in revenue from that stadium that looks like very good business to me.
Also comparing Liverpool's situation to the one at Spurs is rather strange. Liverpool cannot obtain funding for their new ground because of the debt that the club are already carrying due to their owners borrowing against the club to fund their initial purchase of it. If Liverpool were virtually debt free (like Spurs) then they wouldn't have issues in funding a new stadium.
Also CelticHammer - another point that you made baffled me?....
"Now if your club was as sure of its finances going forward why have they not lower prices to help the fans like we have at Upton Park?"
It's the simple laws of supply and demand. At Spurs there are 22,000 people on the season ticket waiting list. At West Ham you no longer have a Season Ticket waiting list and if the number of people failing to renew their season tickets is similar to the number you saw last year then there will be another big hole in West Ham's finances, hence your board are dropping the prices to try to increase the demand. There is no need for THFC's board to do that because the demand is still there.
So CelticHammer - any chance that we can get back on topic here? There are several people who have completely picked apart your arguments and given you facts in return, instead of trying to turn the discussion round into a big club, little club playground spat can you not at least be courtious enough to either admit that you are very wrong on the financial facts or put up some properly researched arguments to show that you are in fact right?
Mate, sorry to be pedantic but the bare minimum number of home games is 19, not 20. You don't play yourself!
DavyD, you're wasting your time mate. Celtic Hammer has long since (about mid-morninhg yesterday)given up any of pretensions trying to have a lucid, thought-provoking and intelligible debate about club finances, and has instead decided to focus his efforts fully on what was really eating at him from the start - 'Spurs think they're a big club but they're not and Im going to tell everyone they're not until I'm blue in the face. Bubbles forever, academy of football, won the world cup, finish above you every season, don't really care about Spurs, blah, blah , blah." My advice to you is just to enjoy this thread for what it has become, a piece of comedy gold. If you can find the time, just have a look at every single entry in order. Guaranteed to give you the best laugh you've had in a while. It certainly did me.
Hammersfan. Seeing as there are (at least) two Cup games every season I was assuming that law of averages dictates that one will be at home for the minimum of 20.
DavyD, you rotten fibber you! Come on, it was an easy enough mistake to make! After all, Tottenham shoot themselves in the foot ever season so why not actually play a game against yourself? You have enough players after all! You could start the season with three points if you programmed it for the opening fixture! No, thinking about it, somehow you would end up drawing and taking one point each!
Late night last night, surprisngly patchy weather for Marbella this time of year and a bloody awful back 9 at Miraflores and I thought I would log back in and be comforted by the heart felt apology of spurs fans for the shocking religious abuse I suffered yesterday.
Did I get it? Where is my apology? Where is my show trial? Where is my memorial? Did I get any of it?
No
No I didnt
What did i get? The last weapon of any spurs fan when they are forced to admit that they are not a big club............smugness.
I refused to stoop to their level of mud slingin and name calling and I certainly refused to resort to racism or religious oppression, I even extended a hand in Christian - Hebrew friendship with my traditional pre wine blessing but was it returned?
No
No it wasnt.
I even took time this morning before teeing off to put a german in his place (you think they would have appreciated that).
To all of you spurs fans, all the anons, to essexyid and the rest of you that I cant be bothered to back and check, its very easy to post what you do, you simply say
HAHA you lost, nothing you said makes sense all of my arguments are right, stop making a show of yourself but the fact is that doesnt actually work.
Its like Lewis Hamilton walking t the front of the grid at Melbourne and saying "look lads there is no point in having this race as I have decided that I have already won and everything thing you say or do from now on only makes you look stupid". The problem is people like Jenson Button figured things differntly.
So getting your fellow spurs mates to agree with you doesnt work either, and racist abuse has no place here what so ever (still waiting for that apology, not just for me and Jesus but for that poor donkey too).
The only thing that has come out of all of this is that scratch any spurs fan and you will find a smug bigot, deluded by the stature of their club and that if you push them they will be forced to admit they are not a big club.
Oh sure they will hurl abuse and not willingly give up the claim that they are as big as Liverpool, Arsenal, ManU or Cheslki but sooner or rather later they will have no choice to accept the fact they are an average club who even by their standards have failed to perform in the league.
There are a few points I wish to discuss about Liverpool. not to have a go but just to highlight the problems at the top of our game but today isnt the day for that.
We held a minutes silence in spikes bar after the game at 3.06, its not much but on days like this you feel you have to mark these events if only that we never forget and that we never repeat what happened. I wasnt much more than a kid when it happened but I remember thinking that there were kids like me there with their dads.
I will be honest the next time I went to Upton park with my dad I didnt put up a fuss when he told me to hold his hand as we joined the crowd going into the ground, like I had started doing since I turned 12 the year before. I was happy to know he was there with me. I thought a lot that day about the kids who would never get to go to a game with their dads again.
It kind of puts a lot of things in perspective and makes a lot look trivial.
To those that lost family amongst the 96 who perished I am sure that the pain, the sense of loss and the heartache are as all consuming now as they were 20years ago. I come from a famiy who has lost someone unexpectedly and far far before their time and I only hope that the memory of their life is now stronger than the memory of their loss.
oh dear, this is getting embarrassing
I don't think so Anon 17.51, I thought that was in good taste. So much so, I'm going to run it!
Hammersfan I am not sure what you mean about running somethign from my last post but if it is in realtion to todays Hillsborough anniversary then there are a few things I would like to add. To be honest I didnt intend to go on that much but in the end having said that much I should have said more.
In 1999 I was going to the Ireand vs England rugby game at Landsdowne Road. I may have always been a massive football plan but I have always been a rugby player, I went to a private secondary school on a rugby scholarship and have never missed an Ireland home interantional since I've been 18.
Rugby games, particualrly those in Ireland tend to be pretty laxed affairs when it comes to policing the crowd. We were entering from the lower landsdown road side, in line with the east stand. There was some sort of problem with the turnstiles and a lot of those going to the south terrace were pushed down to the East Stand turnstiles. This is also where those going to the schoolboy terrace enter. There is only the one gate to take those going to the school boy terrace between the east stand and south terrace which is normally fine as the bulk of the south terrace fans enter elsewhere. The huge crush of people close to kick off meant that more people were coming through the turnstiles but with only the one gate for south terrace ticket holders a bottle neck developed at the gate and more and more people piled into the ground. The stewards, mostly a bunch of geriatrics looking for a free ticket with no training for such and event, could do nothing and the weight of the crowd was pushing people up against the railings by the gate. Most of these were school kids heading to their terrace.
As the crowd grew and grew people were shouting at the stewards to open the emerengy gate under the terrace, which was closed to make it easier to check tickets. I was at this stage right by the railings and the only thing between me and them were a bunch of frightened kids. I had my hands on the railings with my arms locked out trying to leave space for the kids in front of me. Three of them were stood in the space between my arms and other kids were being protected by adult fans who were doing the same as me. We were all shouting over our shoulders to try and tell people behind us to hold the push there were kids in here as the people behind us were grabbing our waists and trying to anchor themselves to give us some support.
I spent what felt like eternity looking in to the terrified faces of 3 kids in their early teens knowing that if i lost my grip, or failed to hold the space i had made for them then the weight of the crowd would cause me to crush these kids against the railing.
An RTE camera crew who were coming the other way from under the terrace saw what was happening and got the Gardai (Irish police) to stop the people coming through the turnstiles and get the stewards to open the emeregency gate to relieve the crush. They had the sense no to fling the gate open when the weight of the crowd could have caused people to be trampled and pulled the kids through the gate first to get them out of the way.
The whole thing only lasted for 4 or 5 minutes but I dont think I have ever had a more scary 5mins in my life.
I know it can not compare to the terror felt by those who were in Hillsborough that day, who saw friends and family crushed to death in front of them but all I know is that this can not ever be allowed to happen again.
The fact it took a tragedy of this magnitude to make the changes needed by those that govern the game of football has left a stain on the very fibre of the FA.
They must be made aware that they are only the caretakers of our game not the owners.
They have mismanaged the game for decades, been afraid to make the correct or hard decisions in case they upset the big clubs who fuel their gravy train.
The top positions should be elected by all 92 clubs and not appointed by an old boys network.
A group of men who have watched on from the banquet table in the board room while the very soul of football has been acutioned off.
They have allowed the debt levels of clubs to spiral out of control to a level that is threatening to implode the very clubs who pay their wages.
The have allowed agents and vested interests to influence football to a dangerous level.
Remember Nike forcing Ronaldo to play in the world cup final when he clearly wasnt fit to take the pitch.
These vlutures have picked the game apart, and left most fans bewildered by the amount of off field factors that control what happens on the pitch with their teams.
How many of our fathers argued over the clubs balance sheet?
The FA should be made watch todays fottage of the memorial and the events of 20years and be told "You caused that!" never mind the decisions made by panic stricken policemen on the day, dont try and pass the buck the events that brought those circumstance to bear that day were set in motion and overseen by you.
The dangers of that type of fencing had been pointed out for years and you wouldnt listen.
You have failed in your duty to the 96fans who died because of your incompetence and you have failed to protect the integrity of the very game you are charged with protecting.
Celtic, I will run this as a separate post tomorrow if that is ok? I have had a less dramatic but similar experience at Upton Park, the season we finished third. We are so lucky that we have only had one Hillsborough based on your experience and mine. Actually, we have had two because of Ibrox.
celtic hammer...............
owned!!!!!!! beyond belief.
the man has been deconstructed to a sub-atomic level. so much so that we are now familiar with his every atom!
and still the fool comes home for more! lol
this thread is legend, never before have i seen a hammer take such a beating on a west ham forum. and to right.
Anon 21.56, I think he has played a blinding innings so far. He's still "not out" in my book and all the bouncers are going over his head. Get back to the facts, cut the personal insults!
hammersfan are you serious? clearly not!!!!...you west ham brotherhood is clearly clouding your sense.....go back over this thread...you will see celtichammer start off by appearing to be a wealth of knowledge, but he is then very quickly broken down...his argument is disected point-by-point...and shown to be untrue....when celtichammer then knows he is on the ropes he chances the subject!....as a west ham fan i expect you to support him.......but dont make a fool of yourself by denying the absolute truth!
*changes*
Ok then Hammersfan, which one of his original points hasn't been shown to be false?
All of his claims about Spurs clearly have, as far as I can see.
LOL He is still holding up his end in cricket parlance mate. I have read through the thread as it has evolved. I don't know where the truth lies. I think that is the oxymoron that sums up the business world right now - the truth lies. I mentioned Lloyds TSB's take over of HBOS at some point in the discussion. I think any degree of confidence based on audited accounts is very misguided at the moment. Nobody knows what toxic debt is hidden. West Ham have bought Ilunga today despite all sorts of rumours about the holding company being on the brink of being seized by the creditors. I have no idea what is going on and am happy to admit it. I don't want Tottenham to go bust, I don't want any club to go bust, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Prem club or two hit major problems over the next 18 months. Pompey seem a fair bet, as do West Ham, but there could be a surprise in there somewhere. No matter who is right and who is wrong, Celtic has taken everything thrown at him and kept playing his shots. All credit in my book - and the same applies to the dogged Cockfools who have kept running up and hurling down the bouncers, yorkers and the odd half volley. I've really enjoyed the contributions on both sides!
this thread is legend
this thread is legend
Hammersfan - good point about playing a game against ourselves. We'd probably get a bigger crowd than the paltry 10,000 you managed for a competetive fixture earlier this season too! ;o)
And as for you thinking that CelticHammer has played a blinding innings and is still "not out".... I can only imagine that you umpire in a manner that is about as impartial as Shakoor Rana.
Also the point you made as follows.......
"I mentioned Lloyds TSB's take over of HBOS at some point in the discussion. I think any degree of confidence based on audited accounts is very misguided at the moment."
I find it extremely strange that you are likening the accounts of a simple football club to those of an organisation as complex as an international bank. I wasn't aware that football clubs held dubiously valued assets and dealt in complex financial instruments including derivatives of asset backed securities where the asset was actually worthless? I also wasn't aware that football clubs had lent money to organisations, who had no way of paying that money back and where any assets used to securitise those loans were now worth only a fraction of the value of the loan?
The accounts of a football club are pretty simple (especially a football club such a THFC that doesn't shroud itself in mystery with a seperate holding company)
Football clubs basically have two types of asset - the land that they own (generally their stadium and their training ground) and the players that the club owns. The players are actually generally valued at less than their market rate due to the standard practice of amortising their asset value over the length of their original contract). Also a club's turnover and profit level (befoe player trading) is reasonably straightforward to work out and does not tend to fluctuate a great deal year on year - i.e. the sky money is a reasonably fixed amount that only fluctuates a little due to finishing position in the league, the money raised through ticket revenue is a reasonably fixed amount that only fluctuates a little depending on the length of cup runs, and the money from sponsors and merchandising tends to be pretty similar each year. Debts and liabilities are also clear for all to see.
Considering how simple it is to read the audited and published accounts of (for instance) THFC. Do you really feel that you cannot trust these? If so then in my opinion that says more about your lack of understanding of a set of accounts than anything else.
You also state that Celtic has taken everything thrown at him and kept playing his shots. He has done nothing of the sort. Instead he has made at best poorly researched, or perhaps even just completely made up, points and then when challenged on them by people who are better informed he has simply changed the subject instead of either admitting that he is wrong or counter arguing.
A better analogy of Celtic's behaviour is that he started playing cricket coming in with a reckless innings with all guns blazing despite not really having the experience or technique to dominate the opposition, then when, very quickly, the bowlers got on top, the runs dried up and there were 8 men around the bat ready to pounce Celtic decided he no longer wanted to play Cricket and declared that he had won the game and was now playing tennis instead.
For you to say that Celtic has done anything other than been made to look very silly only makes you look the same I'm afraid. Go through the thread and look how every 'fact' that Celtic has given has been completely disproven (ENIC, Lewis, Tottenham's debt, THFC owing Lewis money, a new stadium being likely to bankrupt THFC, etc). I won't comment on the points he made about Liverpool as I am not informed on such matters (I think Celtic would do well to follow my lead there in future!) but I would place a large bet that Liverpool do not find themselves in administration this Summer (or next, or the one after that either).
Hammersfan feel free to post anything you wish seperately in its own thread.
I should probbaly emailed that to you directly.
I'm sorry but I got about halfway through this thread and had to stop as tears were coming so hard from laughing I couldn't see properly.
There is obviously at least 1 person on here with accountancy knowledge, and it's not Celtic Hammer, as the Amortization of players registrations/contracts is entirely correct (I'm an accountant).
Legally Joe lewis cannot do anything to obtain cash from Tottenham other than take his share dividends. He owns 75% of Enic but it is actually Enic, as a company, that has the shares in Spurs. Therefore as he legally does not personaly own those shares he can't touch Tottenham directly. He'd have to convince the Enic board to convince the THFC PLC board. As it's illegal to make those sort of payments he wouldn't even try.
Also you mentioned "if Spurs were in such a good financial position why don't they drop their prices?" Simple answer - because they don't need to!
With only 26,000 season tickets available in our current 36,000 capacity stadium and a waiting list of 20,000 they know that should anyone not want to/be able to renew their season ticket they've a queue of people waiting to fill that empty seat.
On to stadium financing. Several years ago before Enic took over Sir Alan Sugar looked at redeveloping WHL and secured a £100m bond for this purpose and for the new training ground. This was a "loan" of sorts that acts like an overdraft facility. You only pay interest on the amount you actually use. So far a few million has been used for the plans and predevelopment of the new training ground. That's it. So there is about 20% of the predicted original estimate of £400m. Add to this the fact that steel and concrete are at all time low prices and the current estimation of costs has dropped by approx £50m according to the financial press. Therefore you're only partially correct in the fact that Spurs will be paying out money before the stadium opens. Of course they are, but it's not like they're going to borrow £400m now and be paying for it for 4 years.
Also unlike the Emirates Tottenham intend to keep the current stadium site and include it in the redelopment plans, as has been mentioned, and leasing out the space for a major supermarket complex etc. So the second stage of redevelopment is on the current stadium site so that won't even be started until after the new stadium is open and trading an you can see why the costs will be in small increments not 1 huge outlay.
Further to this the fact that Edmonton, and the nearby areas, has been identified as an "area of inner city urban redevelopment" by the London Assembley back when Ken Livingston was mayor and still current today as far as I'm informed. This is part of the reason why THFC plans include the "urban square" and public areas. This makes the club elligible for Government grants and tax breaks.
Yes, all new builds cost money so it will create an amount of debt. But in the actual accounts this will be a long term asset. If you pay £100,000 pound to build a house you don't say you've wasted that £100 grand do you?? Of course not as you can sell the house if you want to. The stadium will cost £400m ish, but will increase the club revenue by over £1m per match (if you want to calculate it yourself additional 24,000 seats @ £40/seat = £960k + additional corporate boxes) so you can see it's going to increase the clubs value, not reduce it.
I could shoot other stuff down he's written but to be perfectly honest the guy is so daft I doubt you'd ever be able to reason with him even face to face with all the peperwork and evidence in hand.
Keep this going, it's hilarious!
OK
So read the next stage and see why this thread is becoming legendary on Spurs and Pool forums.
The whole initial debate was about financing and has now decended into a typical "bitter Spammer" rant against Spurs. Shame really as I kinda enjoyed the deluded way Celtic was so sure of himself at the start.
I'm not going to enter the "big club" debate because few people have the same definition of what a big club is.
Fair to say though that today the phrase "big 4" is a media coined term. People forget that a few years ago it was the "big 3" when we only had 3 CL spots in the premiership or the fact we had a couple of years of "big 5" when Spurs finished 5th in consecutive seasons.
Most people will basically agree that history has a lot to do with the acknowledged "big" tag for the most part, which is why few people of any persuasion class Chel$ki as a big club. On the flip side Derby, Leeds, Notts Forest are classed as "big" but look at them now. Newcastle claim to be "big" and "the most loyal fans in football" but look at them now too.
Hammersfan - Creds for letting this run but I disagree that Celtic is holding his bat still, let alone making a last wicket stand. As someone mentioned earlier he seems to have got bored with cricket and gone off to play tennis. His entire original arguments have gone by the wayside and now he's resorting to snipes and unanswered critisms.
And his current "where's the apology for me, Jesus and the donkey"?? WTF!!
If he apologises to Joe Lewis, Daniel Levy, most of Goulders Green and Isreal then he may get a response. Apart from anything else a) is he really a Christian and b) if so how was anyone to know? Most people know Levy & Lewis are Jewish at least. I'm a Agnostic so don't really care either way.
ANYWAY
Let's try and get this thread back on track eh??
As someone that worked in "The City" as an accountant for a while I know a fair amount toxic debt etc and none of that can be applied to football clubs.
The whole reason the likes of Luton, Leeds, West Ham (and even Spurs before Alan Sugar/Terry Venerbles buy out) are in such trouble is bad financial management. Thinking they can "buy success". Failing to budget their spend to reasonably stay within their budget.
And in Luton's case blatantly trying to manipulate the administration ruling (tek a boo Mr Bates!!) by declaring Administration when they were certain to be relegated anyway so trying to dodge the penalty the following season and a 2nd.
The only 2 that succeeded in buying the Premiership title have been Blackburn (who IIRC were relegated the following season) and Chel$ki who will sink like a stone if Abramovich ever gets bored of playing Fantasy Football with real money.
Manchester City's new owners are the next ones who appear to be trying to play that game.
In the case of Spurs our finances were straightened out by Sugar. As much as many Yids hated him at the time he saved us by running THFC as a business. He put in the salary cap, tightened the rein on player spending and maximised the merchandising and marketting potential.
We were heading the same way as West Ham under Terrence Brown. Looking at the possibility of having to sell our players to pay the bills.
If you Spammers had been better run and been able to keep hold of the likes of Lampard, Terry, Carrick, Defoe etc it could have been you dominating the League now.
In the case of Luton they were deducted 10 points by the FA for illegal payments. Well to be honest I can see why they could've had a case if they had competent lawyers.
They could well have cited "legal precedent" due to the facts that Alan Sugar and his lawyers managed to reverse the 6 point deduction we were given prior to Irvine Scholar being ousted.
The 20 points "administration" penalty would have been less severe had they just accepted it at the start of this season rather than playing "cute" with the rules.
Bad management and taking wrong advice. Could happen to any club if if the upper management can not keep a tight ship.
West Ham took bad advice, then lied, but got away with it. In your financial position if you had been relegated this season as you should have been you would probably have ended up like Leeds.
Never to be seen in the top flight again!
You have been well and truely ENDED, GG style!
LOL DavyD You say "I wasn't aware that football clubs held dubiously valued assets and dealt in complex financial instruments including derivatives of asset backed securities where the asset was actually worthless?" Have you seen Luis Boa-Morte play? We paid £5.5million for that asset which is actually worthless!
Interesting read overall DavyD and Dazza. The pun is now irresistible though Daz, I'm sure, in time, it will all come out in the wash!
Thanks for the contributions guys. I really am on "no side here", I have enjoyed the exchanges!
WOOOOHOOOOO
Just when I thought all my fun with spurs fans was over back comes another one.
I will be honest mate I only skimmed your post as it was soul destroyingly dull. A few points did stand out, particularly your claim to be an accountant with experience in "The City" I am guessin that was Garden City or Burger City.
Ok I knocked back a can of RedBull to keep me awake and went over your stadium development plans, touch and go for a while but I got through it.
Firstly Arsenal retained Highbury and oversaw the redevelopment themselves and far from sorting their problems it has added to them.
Secondly the costs associated with redeveloping white hart lane must inclde the cost of the improvements to surrounding infrastructure in order to cope with the increased traffic flow and football. This substantially reduces the profits from such developments. As for transforming the place into a high end shopping venue? Well that speaks for itself.
Now to get to your cost. £400M to build the stadium, thats what you say it will cost so thats fine with me. Yes that money is drawn down in stages but more often than not that will be in the form of bridging finance as the bank wont give a mortgage until there is a completed asset to secure it against. Bridging finance is traditionally more expensive than mortgage finance. The stadium must be completed and fitted out before it will recieve a safety certificate and the bank will sign off on it, as seen at Wembley this can take a considerable amount of time and at all this time the full cost of the build will be being financed by bridging finance.
Before you start slashing cost remember that the 2012 building programe will be running concurrent to any spurs developemend and the demand for specialised firms who build stadiums will ensure that cost are kept, if not high then certainly not cut rate.
Oil prices are starting to rise, as production and refinery capacity are cut and steel prices are heavily linked to oil prices.
Your projections for filling every seat for every game are laughable. If spurs continue their current trend in the league they will soon be doing well to fill white hart lane let alone a 60,000 seater stadium, that type of stadium is top a 4, champions league type arena and seeing as you have never managed that before now how do you think you will do so with the expense of building a new stadium cutting into your transfer budget?
You have to do what Arsenal did and go on a major transfer splurge buying enough talented players to make up the bulk of the team for the next 4 seasons while the building goes ahead.
Now you are prediciting that you will do exactly what Arsenal did, despite not having their turnover, media or image rights or income streams from CL tv and sponsorship and you are going to get it right when they failed to do so.
For any midtable team to plan a £400M stadium development is sheer folly. So please I insist you start immediately.
As for me being Christian, well mate the clue is in the name and the fact that I have already pointed out that I am Irish. Pretty much all Irish people are Christian but if that didnt help your powers of deduction the fact that I said I was offended by it could have tipped you off.
Ah its good to be back!!
id just like to point out again that I run Orient better than Sonofagunderson ran West Ham. Its only a game so better believe im right! Love and Kisses, Baz
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