Saturday, 15 May 2010

Welcome Avram To The Promised Ham

When Curbishley arrived he was in a brown Volvo, towing a caravan. Now, it's Avram rather than a caravan, and who will he have in tow? David James anybody, returning to the Upton Park fold? Well I bet, after that performance today, he starts ahead of Green in the World Cup, and Rob appears destined for pastures new anyway. We need somebody to play wide left so would Belhadj be worth a punt? Boateng had a mare today but he is on the radar apparently. Fancy any of the others?

After wandering for so long in the desert of Fratton Park, even Upton Park must appear like a Promised Land to the Avramlites. "Let my people go!" Avram will demand, and Pompey can't afford to say no at this stage. The Dindane deal has taken them to the very brink as it is, they can't run the risk of a whole plague of frogs!

I, for one, will welcome Avram with open arms. Quite what the gas chamber hissing anti Semites amongst our fan base will make of him, is another matter. What with the Jewish Gold in the Board Room and the Israeli Grant in the managerial hot seat, we will have more of the New Jerusalem about us than Tottenham! Time to rename parts of the ground perhaps? Ticket for the West Bank anybody? All get changed in the Gaza Strip? Never mind Canning Town, let's rename it Canaan Town. Oh and move over Katie Perry, make way for Jordan!

Not everybody will be happy about the appointment of Grant but there are a few massage parlours around Newham allegedly excited at the prospect! How does that song go? "He'll be running round Newham with his willy hanging out!"


Anonymous said...

why do a lot of west ham fans want slaven bilic. dont forget he wanted out when everton came calling. and that was everton. not even a top club. so whos to say if he came in and done a good job that he wouldnt leave again. i think grant is a good manager and i hope we get him.

Anonymous said...

good luck 2 kevin mitchell 2night.

UKIT said...

Well I proven premiership manager is what is needed and I think Avram just about fits the bill. Proven with Chelsea, sort of proven with Portsmouth.

Unfortunately will the whingers be happy with him grinding out results with our sub-standard team or will the "quality" of the football raise its ugly head again?

This club is in transition and needs a few years grinding out the results with whatever football it takes.

Rabelais said...

Sorry, this is off topic. But I just wanted to pass this link on (your maybe aware of it already).

Anonymous said...

just heard on talk sport that avram grant in a statement has said he wants to stay in the premier league. i hope we get him. i think hes a good manager.

Anonymous said...

Zola was a crap manager who played players out of position and also employed bad tactics SO can we let go now? can we draw a line in sand and move on? please hf it's been boring and tedious for quite a while now...........

Hammersfan said...

Already posted about that Rab

This thread isn't about Zola is it?

Anonymous said...

my mate has been in and around upton park all day to day to watch the fight later and he has told me that their is a big rumour going around that mark hughes is goner be the new manager. and he said he was talking to someone who see mark hughes their today.

Straight4ward said...

Why would we want Avram Grant?

The Israeli was considered a dour man in his country and his teams were said to play dull, unimaginative football.

His shock appointment at Chelsea had more to do with Abramovitch flexing his muscles than sound footballing judgement. Chelsea staff reckoned his training methods were 25 years behind the times and the players were quoted as saying that they reached the Champions League final inspite of him rather than because of him.

This season at Portsmouth the club has lost 24 league games and only managed to score 34 goals. What use is a day out at Wembley when you’re plunging head first into the Championship? When you’re facing a wet Wednesday night’s game away to Scunthorpe in November next season, will that cup run, that ended in defeat of course, be remembered quite so fondly?

Avram Grant? No, thanks.

apache said...

Firstly, I thought Boateng was excellent up until the penalty miss and so did the people that I was with in the bar.

Pompey playing within themselves would never have had a chance, but they needed to try and make things happen and that's exactly what Dindane and Boateng were doing.

O'Hara was rubbish today, haven't seen enough of him to know if that's usual or not.

As for Grant - PLEASE NO!!!

Everyone says look at what he's done with Pompey and Chelski.

Any manager with an ounce of common sense could have done what he did with Chelski and yeah, I also heard that it was the players that stepped up to the plate.

As for Pompey? Cup Final and it's one off matches aside, what has he done at Pompey.

Terrible points record (even without the deduction), useless goals for and against.

Lastly, a point I was making on the Org, when has he ever shown an ounce of ambition?

After Chelski when his stock was highest, did he try and get a managers job somewhere to prove Abramovitch wrong?

Did he heck, he got another technical directors job.

Yes we need consolidation, but we shouldn't go for a manager that will deliver only that.

Hammersfan said...

Took them to a Champions League final Apache mate. People say, look what Zola had to cope with at West Ham but it's nothing to what Grant had to deal with at Pompey. Our players were paid regularly and there were no contract stipulations determining who Zola could play and when. I think Grant did a fabulous job to keep that bunch motivated. Remember they were in dire straits when he took over. Without the awful Hart led start and the points deduction, Pompey would have finished above us!

Anonymous said...

Great humour HF, using some of the modern world's saddest and most controversial flashpoints for your little joke. I think an apology or maybe your next weeks salary donated to the Bobby Moore Fund should be forthcoming as a sign of your penance. And by the way, Gaza Strip (Palestine not Israel), West Bank (Palestine not Israel) and Jordan, well thats obvious. Georgraphy not your strong point along with your humour

Essexhammer said...

The only player who stood out for PORTSMOUTH today was BELHADJ when he came on as sub,pacey winger with good crossing ability,just what we need.I don't think the appointment of GRANT is cut and dry yet,HUGHES is a strong possibility.Suppose it all boils down to which of them is more desperate to manage in the premiership.Both have their appeal but my favourite is JOL.

Essexhammer said...

Anyone know whats happened to site ,I can't log in.Its been down for a few days now.

Hammersfan said...

2136, you are a moron. It is the World's most controversial flashpoint precisely because the Jews were given ALL of the lands West of the Jordan when Moses led them to the Promised Land. THAT is why the troubles persist, because Orthodox Jews believe that Israel has to be restored to the original territories BEFORE the Messiah can appear. Having visited Israel, before the "creation" of the West Bank and Gaza, I know my geography thank you very much. Unlike you, I know my history and my Bible too. If you want to get into the intellectual ring with me, I suggest you train your brain a little harder first! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. What do I have to apologise for? A joke about Moses? Well I suppose it runs the risk of upsetting Muslims, Jews and Christians simultaneously. If it does, it will go a long way to explaining the troubles you know so little about. If they all worried less about territory and concentrated more on what they have in common, those troubles could disappear.

Anonymous said...

HF, as a regular visitor to you blog I often wonder why people get so upset with your attitude, but as a Hammers fan living in Tel Aviv alas I now see their point, as you are very pompous and self serving man. 2136 made a very valid point at your simplistic view of the troubles is an illustration of why the problems exist. I do not see why 2136 is a Moron, as he states the facts as of today, he only judged your use of such "flashpoints" for humour, which for me also was not funny. You criticise (quite correctly) the anti-semetic "fans" and then don't seem to have the capacity in your self claimed intellect to see where you are wrong. As a footnote I would wholly welcome Avram as the manager, it would make me a very proud Israeli, bring back Yossi and CUYI!!

Anonymous said...

A fatwa against Hammersfan for dissing the Palestinians, now there's a thought!!!

Anonymous said...

I've always stated that HF is the biggest racist here AND on the Org. Most of us know it already anyway. The trouble with talking too much is remembering what you said in the past. And HF certainly does a lot of talking, just for the sake of talking. Billy No-Mates.

Hammersfan said...

We all react when a nerve is touched perhaps 0658. I do not understand why you would be upset, however. I present Avram as Moses because it looks like he will be leading an exodus of Pompey players to the Promised Land of Upton Park. Big deal. Moses has been dead for thousands of years. 2136 seemed to think that the West Bank and Gaza had nothing to do with Isreal and failed to understand that the Jordan was a river marking the boundary of Israel. I would like to know how the post is racist. It is pointing out that the anti Semitic morons who support our club will now face a major dilemma and turns a racist song back on those fans. How can they now sing that when Tottenham come to town? The song is used by me, not in a racist way, but as a reference to Avram's alleged personal indiscretions. As for the flashpoint business, well that goes back to Moses and the question of territory. That's not my fault, that's just the case.

Stani Army said...

In your statement "Orthodox Jews believe that Israel has to be restored to the original territories BEFORE the Messiah can appear", did you mean there should not be a state of Israel at this time?

Orthodox Jewish people e.g those of the Neturei Karta, are opposed to the current state of Israel as their scriptures forbade it. According to the Torah and other books, Jewish people must remain in exile, under the law of the rest of the nations of the world until the return of the Messiah. I think we need to be wary of not painting the Orthodox Jewish people with the Zionist brush.

We should also be careful with the use of the word Semite. Anti-Semitism is a term that has been high-jacked and used against anyone who speaks against the state of Israel. But, Arabs are Semites too.

As for Grant as manager; I think our experience of him maybe a bit misleading. His record here is largely a product of circumstances e.g. his time at Chelsea with those super stars (Zola could have done that). I tend to agree with Straight4ward and Apache. I think this will be a big, and real test for Grant for the first time. For our sakes, I hope he does well but his appointment, should it happen, is still a risk.

Anonymous said...

Hi HF this is 2136 and I am a Jordanian not a Moron (why do you get so angry so quickly?), but I would not take it for granted (like you) that I know more of the Arab-Israeli situation than you.

However, firstly, thank you 0953 for your understanding if only there were more like you.

HF I would not get into the intellectual ring with you as for one, you are clearly a very old wise man. The disputed areas of the West Bank and Gaza were designated as such by the 1949 Armistice Agreement that followed the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, so that must make you at least 80 given your admission to have visted Israel before their creation. However maybe in your visit to Israel you were oblivious to this fact and indeed you are younger and not well as informed as you thought. Anyway a history lesson distracts me from the point of my first post. I merely objected to you linking an Israeli in humour to the Palesitian territories that were re-occupied by the invading Israelis in 1967. More recently over 2008/9 over 1,000 Palestinians lost their lives and 50,000 made homeless in the Gaza Strip from further Israeli attacks. So when you use "Gaza Strip" for your little joke (ha ha) unfortunately your huge intellect does not enable you to see the hurt it may bring some Hammers fans, not to mention the Nation of Palestine.

By the way I never suggested you were racist in my response to your main blog although your following posts make me wonder (I'm sure your friends who hiss on the terraces would also vehmently justify their behaviour as you do in your latter posts), therefore I still challenge you for an apology, in order to clear your good name by showing the other readers of your blog that you have some humility for once.

PS. Of course as a Jordanian I know we also have a river of that name, indeed for its greater length it's main border is with the aforementioned West Bank (as in river bank, get it?), still part of the Palestinian Territories!! And before you comeback, yes I am aware it also forms part of the northern Israeli border with my country.

Anonymous said...

Hi 2136 again! Sorry 0658, I meant to thank you and clearly not HF's post of 0953.

Anonymous said...

@15:40 I think HF's silence speaks volumes, as I sure he has no intention of replying or indeed apologising - what you'll find is when someone challenges him, he will then post a flurry of articles which buries the opposing comments further down the the blog.

The more intelligent the challenge the more he'll do to bury it. Another tactic he employs is to chose to purposely misunderstand the comment and try to make a poor joke of it.

If you want intelligent, educated and witty responses I am afraid you'll have to look elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

@06:58 - a moment of clarity, everyone sees through him in the end..........

Hammersfan said...

LOL I think HF's silence says that he has been busy this afternoon. I look in on the blog from time to time when indoors. If out, it is allowed to run on its own!

1540, it was not you who called me a racist but somebody else (see above). I visited Israel shortly before the first Intefada (spelt correctly?) started. I arrived as a Jewish sympathiser and left very much with an empathy for the Palestinian people after the discrimination I witnessed and after speaking to the indiginous Arab populace. My sympathies are still with the Palestinians although I recognise the issues that the Israelis face. It doesn't matter what the de juro situation was in 1987, the de facto situation was that the West Bank and Gaza were territories within the borders of Israel, as were the Golan Heights when we visited. I took short public bus rides from Jerusalem to Bethlehem and to Jericho. One of my fondest memories of the holiday is an afternoon we spent in the desert with an Arab bedouin family, sharing a chicken stew dish around a camp fire. After taking a camel ride on the Mount of Olives and giving a generous tip, we were invited "home" to meet the family - a 20 minute car drive into what is now, presumably, the West Bank.

As we speak, both the West Bank and Gaza are only quasi autononous regions, controlled effectively by Israel. Their "creation" was a simple device to disenfranchise the Arab population, so enabling Israel to maintain the impression that it is a democracy whilst frustrating the possibility of an Arab majority voting Israel out of existence. Now I run the risk of irate responses from Zionists but that is the truth of the matter. Back in 87, there were articles in the Jerusalem Times about the dangers of a slower birth rate amongst Jews and, around about that time, Etheopian Jews were welcomed into Israel to swell the numbers.

I feel no need to apologise because you have taken the post in the wrong way. I am not belittling the situation in Israel / Palestine, I am playing upon the idea of a Jewish led exodus from Pompey and highlighting the difficulties presented to anti Semitic supporters amongst our fan base should Grant become our manager. My blog is not going to make the situation in the West Bank or Gaza any better or worse is it? Your reaction is, in my opinion, excessively defensive - and that sums up the whole situation in the region, with both sides too quick to assume the worst of the other. Perhaps if people eased back on the throttle, chilled a little and tried talking rather than shouting (and avoided throwing missiles and triggering car bombs), then things might improve. Of course, the Jordanian treatment of the Palestinians is also open to criticism isn't it?

Stani, there are Orthodox Jews in Israel who believe that the original boundaries have to be re-established and maintained to facilitate the coming of the Messiah, as I'm sure you know. Of course there are differences between Orthodox Jews, reform Jews and Zionists, but draw a Venn Diagram of the groups and there will be overlap. The whole settlement issue is being driven by hard line Zionists but they are supported in the Knesset by Orthodox parties are they not?

With regard to anti Semitism Stani, the standard use of the term now is reserved for a hatred towards Jews. I have no objection to a more inclusive definition, however, especially in relation to West Ham. The "Shoe Bomber" song sung when Mido was on the pitch at Upton Park was almost as disgraceful as the hissing to simulate the gas chambers when we play Tottenham

Anonymous said...

2136 again, I give up, HF you really can't help yourself after some degree of eloquence (isn't Wikipedia a wonderful thing) you insult me by implying my nation is no better in its treatment of Palestinians. Are you not aware that our beloved King is married to Rania, the daughter of Palestinian refugees and I am also engaged to a girl born on the West Bank. You state among your opinions that "both sides are too quick to assume the worst of the other" yet your first utterance to me is to proclaim me a moron when my main point was to question your humour. You still avoid my question, do you think it funny to use "Gaza Strip" as a joke despite the deaths of innocent children and women,.....clearly you do. Your apology would anyhow now be worthless as I will never return to this shameless blog, but if you wish to take coffee one day in Amman, somehow announce your arrival as I have some friends who would love to take up the debate and mete out their judgment

Stani Army said...

Yes, absolutely. There are Orthodox Jewish people living in Israel, supporting the state so that would in itself be wrong according to the point we discussed. Though some are ignorant of this, and others are just trying to make the best of a bad situation, they should recognise what their scriptures say and follow accordingly and distance themselves from the Zionists. They don't realise how much of a bad name the Zionists are giving them.

As for our fans; we have quite a large racist element amongst them. I experienced racism directed at me in the first game that I went to, it was against Metz in the Intertoto Cup when Luis Saha scored against us. Since then, I have experienced it on a number of occasions. Sometimes it does make you feel like not going back. We can have these campaigns but these people will never change. They will not make me stop supporting though.

Hammersfan said...

And in your last line you say it all! We are discussing, you threaten physical violence. If that doesn't sum up the region, I don't know what does! And that isn't funny when you think about it; it's very sad. A cliched response my friend which confirms the bigoted views that many hold of the people of the region. Why react so violently? How does that help your argument?

Tell me, how did Jordan treat the Palestinian refugees in 1988? The yellow card holders had their citizenship rights revoked didn't they? And did that not result in increasing tensions in both Israel and the Lebanon? Please excuse me if I'm wrong but I think that is a matter of historical record is it not? Rather like the way we closed the door on the Jews when Eichmann wrote to the British government asking us to take them in 1938? And the way we tried to close off entry to Palestine to the Jewish refugees from the Nazi terrorised Europe.

I'm not condemning Jordan, I'm just saying that your nation does not have a perfect record in this area. Better than most admitedly, and better than ours, but not perfect.

By the way, don't assume all of us are dependent on Wikipedia, some of us have books and read them. Try buying "From Beirut to Jerusalem"; I found it fascinating and very enlightening.

Hammersfan said...

Stani, it can be stopped if the club and the stewards take action. I could identify the fans responsible for the shoe bomber chants against Mido, so why doesn't the club do it? They are all season ticket holders and could esily have life time bans slapped on them should the club so choose. If everybody understood that racist chants would result in a life time ban, and if fans saw it happen, then all this could be stopped very quickly.

It is interesting that your sympathies follow your religion Stani. Are you from the region? Why do you think it is so difficult to find a Muslim who sympathises with the Jewish position and a Jew who sympathises with the cause of the Palstinians? It's as if religious allegiance dictates the position, irrespective of any other consideration. Let's face it, there are enough Arab nations treating ethnic minorities and the poor abysmally, so why all the anger focused exclusively on Israel? Right is on both sides, and wrong too. The trouble is, the whole region is intent on seeing the issue in terms of black and white rather than recognising that the Israelis are simply behaving as most of the Arab nations behave themselves.

Anonymous said...

HF, rather than rambling on smuggly with your clearly deep knowledge of the region, why don't you answer the Jordanian's question.

Is it funny or clever to use the Gaza Strip as a reference for your humour?

I like your blog but your arrogance on this issue is irritating me immensely and if I were you I would stop digging the ever decreasing hole in which you currently stand.

Hammersfan said...

2106, where do you stand on Four Lions? Humour or unacceptable? Why is Gaza off limits? Look at the reaction to the Jimmy Carr joke about amputees from Iraq and Afghanistan boosting our 2012 Paralympic medals haul. The PC mob went mad; but soldiers came out and said they thought the joke was funny, including amputees themselves. As the soldiers said, it is precisely that sort of black humour that gets them through the hell they face out there. I've said it before and I will say it again, almost all humour has a dark side. At the crudest level, in slapstick, somebody is being hit. Most humour has a racist or sexist angle to it, or can be seen as bad taste by someone if they choose to be offended. Generally, the dodgier it is, the funnier it is. Tell me, what is the harm in joking about our dressing room being called the Gaza Strip? How does that hurt anybody? Please explain. It is not a dig at the people of Gaza in any way whatsoever and it makes no reference to the rights or wrongs does it? So, explain the harm please.

TheOrgSTER said...

have you seen four lions? of course you haven't, but I bet you read a good report in the Daily Mail - I love your "generous tip" you sound just like a whitey who visited South Africa in 80's

I've also noted that you love to mention the anti Tottenham hissing at every opportunity.......... you're a low life and you know you are

Hammersfan said...

Have you seen Four Lions? What did you think of it? The clips on TV were very funny.

Why am I a low life for disapproving of anti Semitism?

Anonymous said...


HF Quote "Most humour has a racist or sexist angle to it, or can be seen as bad taste by someone if they choose to be offended. Generally, the dodgier it is, the funnier it is"

So now you give your anti-semetic mates the excuse for their hissing, its just a bad taste dodgy joke at the expense of 6 million people, that unless you are offended is really funny!!

HF, read the stuff you write before you post it!!!!

The OrgSTER said...

06:29 glad you picked up on it too - he is a low life scum bag for thinking the gassing of Jews is funny - this man has always been like watching a car crash in slow motion, totally horrific but compulsive at the same time.

What I can't actually believe is that there are people who still think he is ok..... mind you I think that number is rapidly diminishing.

Stani Army said...

Yes, I think the clubs can do more but I was speaking in general terms, in society. But yes, I definitely feel clubs can do more but that is not their priority. Their priority is filling seats unfortunately. And most of the bad experiences I have had have been from those that are season ticket holders.


I would like to believe that my position on this is not because of my religion. Everything I have stated above on this subject is just fact and I do hope I'd be of the same view if looking at it as an Atheist or whatever. Do you disagree with anything I have said on this subject?

I was born and bred in East Ham and have lived here all my life and will do for the foreseeable future. My bloodline is from the Janjua Rajputs. My parents come from Kashmir.

It is difficult to find Muslims who sympathise with Jews and Jews who sympathise with Palestinians, as you put it, because we live in a very impatient, materialistic, ignorant and intolerant world. The media also promote the intolerant side and hardly ever show the other side. Also, the regular person is very ignorant of world affairs and maybe this dumbing down has a more complicated purpose.

I do get the feeling that you blame religion for the hard-line positions taken by bot sides but many of the people that do sympathise with one another do so BECAUSE of their religion. It is their religion that teaches them to be inclusive and tolerant. Religion turns some people good, but it also turns some people bad, I agree. I would say that it has a positive affect on more than a negative one though.

Do you really believe that what Israel has done can be compared what Arab nations do?

Anonymous said...

HF, looks like you had better not have a coffee and state your views down in East Ham either!!

Anonymous said...

The one thing I can never understand about the Jews and Arabs is that they lived in harmony for centuries - traded with each other and lived side by side - I am sure if you check the DNA it's the same and lots of similarities such as not eating pork / Moses etc.,

Hammersfan said...

You are spot on, of course, 1706, Ishmael is supposedly the father of the Arabs as I understand it, and he was a Semite. Is that right Stani? Thus the famous opening to Moby Dick, "Call me Ishmael". The difference is religion. How can you say it does more good than harm Stani? Remove religion from the equation and all the problems disappear. It is not just the Jewish / Muslim conflict, look at the Sunni and Shiite divide within Islam. Look at Iraq. Look at the way Iraq and Iran waged war with each other. Look at how the Lebanon tore itself apart with Christian, Druze and Shiite militia murdering purely on the basis of religion, and the way Sharon opened up the refugee camp for the Christian militia to conduct mass murder whilst the future Isreali President smoked a cigarette listening to the gunfire. Why did all this happen? It was purely and simply down to religion. Look at what happens in Kashmire - religion and territory. Look at what is happening in Pakistan and Afghanistan - religion. Look at waht happened in Mumbai - religion. Look at the conflict in Sri Lanka - religion. Look at the genocide in the old Yugoslavia - religion. It seems to me that the Romans had it right when they came up with Mars - the god of war!

I will treat you other idiots with the contempt you deserve. Suffice to say, something has to be funny first. Hissing is not funny. However, 'Allo 'Allo was shown on British TV despite being based on the Nazi occupation of France because it contained JOKES and HUMOUR. If you find hissing funny, especially when you know why the idiots are hissing, then you are truly stupid.

Stani Army said...

It's more through Abraham than Ismael that Islam, Judaism and Christianity is linked. Muslims link to Abraham through his son Ismael, whilst Jews and Christians do so through his other son Isaac. My understanding is, to be Semitic, you'd have to be a speaker of one of the Semitic languages that are/were spoken in the areas of the middle-east and some parts of Africa. Arabic is the most spoken of the Semitic languages. Hebrew is also a Semitic language.


The reason I say it because if you take religion out of it, would all the fighting stop? They will find something to fight about. If you ask me, I think nationalism is one of the biggest problems in the world, and can be attributed as the cause to some of those conflicts you mentioned.

As for the Shia Suni trouble; There are Shia who hate Sunni and vice versa. But, I believe most of the problems are from the outside. The biggest fear to those that oppose a type of people, is if those people are united. The old tactic of divide and conquer is then employed. I would love to believe that this world is an honest and innocent one but there are forces at work that instigate various things for their own interests. When the BBC refuse to broadcast an aid appeal, any human being who is alive, should know there's something that's just not right.

If I was a power in the West, it would not be very difficult for me to start a war between Iraq and Iran. It is the same with Pakistan and India. The reason they do not go further in their instigation with Pakistan and India is that both nations are Nuclear powers, and Pakistan is a close ally of the next super-power of the world, China. This would cause a world war. But I'm sure they are hard at work in trying to find a way, but "though they plan, God also plans, and he is the best of planners"

Hammersfan said...

You are speaking like one of the brainwashed Stani. It was never in the West's interests to forment a war between Iraq and Iran because of that funny black stuff we need to run our economies. You talk about the West as if it is one single nation state; we can't even achieve concensus in Britain, never mind across Europe and beyond.

Of course nation states sponsor individuals in power struggles in the expectation of getting something back in return, and this invariably ends in disaster, but you need a Saddam in the first place, the West doesn't manufacture these bastards.

Why wriggle Stani? Why not accept that religion has a role in all sorts of conflicts around the world? To try to deny this is ridiculous. Didn't Muhammad make his name by waging war on Meccan tribes? Doesn't the Qu'ran legitimise war in defence of Islam? Why doesn't Islam renounce ABSOLUTELY ALL violence, all war, all bloodshed?

Stani Army said...

Brainwashed? Oh come on HF, don't say something like that. It would be very easy for me to turn around and say the same thing to you but it would be dismissive and I maybe missing something. It is a very easy thing to say.

Do not be afraid to consider something which goes against something which you took to be the sacred truth.

I did not mention oil. By the West I meant U.S of A, U.K of A :), and Israel. Now they are bum-bandits if I ever saw any.

You are correct about the need of dodgy leaders to be there for power struggles to occur but in the case of Saddam, he received plenty of help from the west when in charge.

In some cases, the path is cleared by the powers that be for a certain leader to take control/be 'elected'. I certainly think that was the case with Bush and Zardari in Pakistan.

Wriggle? I have accepted that religion has a role, or more correctly, people use religion, I am not denying this. Why would I deny something so obvious? I am just saying that if religion did not exist then people would still fight. Therefore, the cause of this goes deeper.

Islam does not denounce or renounce war because of the need to defend itself. Everyone/thing has the right do defend itself.

Hammersfan said...

Islam cannot defend itself surely, people defend Islam. Why does Allah need people to fight for him? If everything happens according to the will of Allah, why is there a need to defend Islam? Allah, presumably, would not will the destruction of his own religion? So why not put faith in Allah and not fight back? If Islam renounced all violence, why would anybody be bothered to attack the faith or its acolytes? It is surely BECAUSE Islam endorses violence that Islam is the target for violence? Ghandi renounced violence and won. Mandela won when he renounced violence. But none of that matters anyway if the tenants of your faith are correct: that Allah wills everything and nobody dies unless Allah wills it. If that IS the case, why does Islam need armies or soldiers? Trust to Allah!

Hammersfan said...

Tenets of course! Apologies!