Would you believe it, the OS are only floating the idea of a return for the Hammerettes! It didn't take the smutty brothers long did it? How long before Page 3 of the match day programme features a topless Hammerette? Bet the girls will be in short skirts and thongs! Well it's one way of suggesting things are "looking up" at West Ham I suppose!
And Sullivan and Gold can offer a career structure too - Cheer leader today, porn model this time next year! The players take a 25% cut in their wages and the girls lose 100% of their kit!
51 comments:
Let's just hope so a?
Let's just hope so a?
I'm all for it ... if they need a tour manager too I'm free ...
It would great to have them back, i've become a fan of them on fbook :)
They've been thinking about this for a while now - there's even been voting on more reputable sites than this one..... HF looks like you've been slow on the uptake, how did you miss that one - as we know you're usually always first in everything
Talking of combining their business interests, theyve already got a plastic cock (you) writing about West Ham!
So witty!
HF,
I enjoy the blog but you have to concede that when it comes to 'smut', you're the one that regularly uses pictures of young women in states of undress to illustrate your posts.
On the subject of the Hammerettes; I'd rather see more time and effort put into the development of West Ham Ladies FC. These days women's involvement in football is not confined to prancing around in a mini-skirt in the middle of the pitch at half-time.
I suspect that in 10-15 years time (maybe less) there will be professional women footballers. I'd rather see West Ham as pioneers in that area, just as the Academy has pioneered young talent, instead of harking back to the bygone era of Benny Hill and all that old bollox.
10:34 I have to say I agree - HF is rather Benny Hillesque - which would be harmless if he didn't show obvious racial undertones as well. I suspect our bitter host either lives alone or with his mum and finds a fair amount of solice in naked pictures and belittling minorities
Well... I voted yes on the official site. :)
LOL 1034, still banging that drum? A number of contributors on here might disagree with you as they are Asian and clearly do not perceive this blog as racist. Yes it is anti Scouser but I think that's it. And some of my best friends are Scousers. (Not true actually but still!)
If you want to uncover racists, look back in on the Org. Your friend and mine davefking is not just a member of the claret and blue Klan. You know, the guy who thinks this country has been ruined by immigration and who said he was delighted when Cole was injured.
Smutty? This blog? Benny Hillesque? LOL I'm wearing little round glasses and have my cap on askew as I type this! Ernie, he drove the fater milk cart in the West!
So this Country hasn't been ruined by imigration then?
So this Country hasn't been ruined by immigration then?
No it hasn't. Angles and Saxons brought with them our language, driving the Celts into Wales where some say they belong. The Romans taught us how to build roads and how to wash! They also built a wall to keep the Scots where some say they belong. The Vikings were a civilising force and the Normans brought laws, civil order and taught us how to build with stone. Jews built businesses and laid the foundations of the Finance sector which generates so much of our national wealth. Our National Heath Service would cease to function without the ethnic communities who make up a disporportionately high number of the doctors, nurses, chemists and support staff. We would have lost the Second World War without support from the Commonwealth nations and Poles. I have yet to meet an unemployed Pole or Czech or Latvian - they do the jobs that the idle English are unwilling to do. Our music has been hugely enhanced by immigration, as has our cuisine. Immigration ruining our country? There probably isn't a single person in this country that is pure Celt - so we are all the stock of immigrants. Look in the mirror mate. To quote True Romance - you are part eggplant yourself! Be proud of it because without the ethnic mix, you would have ginger hair and a face that turns bright red as soon as the sun comes out in May!
And, of course, we now have a Jewish owner of the club! Would you prefer never to have seen Di Canio, Kanoute, Tevez, Diamanti, Van der Elst and Clyde Best in a West Ham shirt? Immigrants all!
Thanks for the history lesson Hammersfan. All well and good but we all know that the East End and mainly other parts of London have been ruined for ever because we have been overrun by people who will not fit into the British way of life. Many parts of London have literally been ethnically cleansed and what will this country be like in 20 years. How many decent English families have not only been forced to leave certain area/cities but so many are now leaving the country. Immigration has done some good but we should have adopted countries like Australia’s rules years ago. Instead we took in so much crap from all corners of the world. If you want to emigrate you either have to offer them a skill or be able to financially support yourself and you would certainly be given a health check. I could go on and on and no doubt you will see me as a racist but I have nothing against the individuals just the amount. The do gooders in this country who no doubt don't live anyway near some of these ghettos have turned moderate people to the far right. The BNP currently offer some hope to some who live in areas currently under threat. Unless a main party in brave enough to tackle this issue head on we will see full scale race riots. Muslims threatening to disrespect British troops was the final straw for many. Like I say if the Tories for example stand up for the indigenous people they will get a landslide in the coming election but I cannot see this happening.
You speak for many IEF.
absolutely ief.
@ Is England Finished
The east end of London has for centuries been the arrival point of many immigrant populations. So what's new? And many of those immigrants were considered an affront to the 'British way of life'. Now they are part of the British way of life and it is difficult to conceive of a Britain without them.
But what about all those 'decent English' you refer to leaving the country. And going where? France, Spain, eastern Europe. Immigrants everyone of them. Will they assimilate in their host nations? Probably not. The Brits abroad have generally demonstrated a determination to maintain their own way of life. Roast beef, warm beer, satellite dish on the roof of the gîte so they can watch the Prem on Sky.
Still, maybe we should adopt Aussie rules of immigration, as you say. I mean, after all, we forced enough of our own to immigrate there in the past and they assimilated a treat with the locals, Didn't they? Confiscating aboriginal land and all that. Still, you got to admire the Bull Dog spirit.
God, the old country's in an awful mess. So bad in fact, that the only thing to do is to vote into office a gang of ageing, fascist boot boys.
My granda fought to keep the country free of that sort of thing in the second world war, along side Poles, West Indians and Asians. But I'm sure he'll appreciate the fact that 65 years later a crowd of holocaust deniers were the only ones who could save dear old Blighty from the grandchildren of those he fought beside and those he fought to liberate. Won't you Granda?
On the other hand, Is England Finished, you could buy a history book or two, or is education and enlightenment the preserve of 'do-gooders'.
P.S. Also could you get out of the lazy-arsed habit of confusing England with Britain, and Englishness with Britishness. They are related but not the same.
I think you will find Rabelais that far more ENGLISHMAN agree with IEF's comments than your own. We have buried our heads in the sand for too long and enough is enough. The English Defence League is attracting massive support and will take on the Muslim threat head on. They are the enemy within and a threat to our way of life.
If I'd a pound for every time I'd been warned of 'the enemy within'... a term applied in the past to Englishmen and women themselves.
In any case, how do you know what most Englishmen think? Remind me again how many votes did the English Defence League get? And what exactly is your way of life?
Just a thought Rabelais are you or do you consider yourself English?
Living in Belfast? No. But then again my Grandad - the one who fought fascism - was from Falmouth - but he wasn't English either. He considered himself Cornish. My mother's family are Irish, but changed their religion from Catholic to Protestant, probably during the Irish famine, so becoming, in the context of the north of Ireland, British. The rest of my family are Highland Scots.
Speaking for myself, I'm a bit of an Anglophile. I've supported the Hammers since I was in primary school (in Belfast - I'm an EastEnder - East Belfast.) When it comes to international football, I'm pretty ecumenical in my allegiances. I support all the 'home nations', including the Republic or Ireland. And when they play each other, I'm happy just to enjoy the football.
I grew up listening to The Sex Pistols, The Jam and later The Smiths - fittingly at least two of these groups have English hearts and Irish blood.
I feel a tremendous affinity with a tradition of English radicalism that includes George Orwell and stretches back to the English civil war and figures like Gerrard Winstanley and John 'Free-born' Lilburne. Later, people like 'mad' John Clare of Northamptonshire. I lived in Northampton for three years as an 'economic migrant' - couldn't get a job in Belfast. Loved the place. And got on well with the locals - which is why I don't believe for a moment that most people in England are unwelcoming xenophobes.
So, I don't know what the f**k I am. And that'll do for me. I've seen people shot to pieces and blown to buggery because of the blind intolerance of difference and the inability to appreciate the complexity of identity.
Nevertheless, on this blog I'm a Hammer's fan. A designation which transcends nationality. Look at the West Ham team sheet this Saturday - any Saturday - and consider just how limited the team selection would be if it were up to the English Defence League to pick the team.
So Rabelais your not from London then are you? So how can you possibly have any idea what your talking about? English people are being discriminated against by these Muslims in there own country just for being English. How would you feel in the same situation? Would you not fight back? I think you should clue yourself up on the issue a bit more before you start making naive comments.
Wow, quite a debate springboarding from a tongue in cheek article on the Hammerrettes!
I am an Englishman and agree almost 100% with Rabelais. I do have some symapthy with the concerns about Islamic Fundamentalism but my issue is not with the people but with the creed. I would outlaw all fundamentalism personally because it divides people. Hasidic Jews, the burka, Christian billboards outside churches - I would ban the lot. I do believe that certain core values should be maintained and it is important that we do not allow a state to grow inside our state. If Muslims wish to live under Sharia Law, they should move to an Islamic state. But the fact is, 95% of Muslims in the UK are not fundamentalist, just as 95% of Jews are not Hasidic and 95% of Christians are not Bible bashing nutcases.
It is amazing to see people still predicting "rivers of blood". Surely we have moved on since Enoch Powell? As for the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" to describe "White Flight" from the East End, that is disgracefully inappropriate and typical of the BNP. Hitler ethnically cleansed, the white East Enders, including almost all of my relatives, CHOSE to move to Basildon and beyond!
IEF and Anonymous, can you not generalise on 'Muslims'. I know, being a reader of The Sun and avid follower of skynews, it's difficult for you, but you're being remarkably ignorant.
Stani go crawl up HF's arse again. Some interesting comments up above and that is from both sides except yours of course. I am a Londoner that was on the White Flight and it was not a flight a lot of us would have chosen to take. Is England finished, well it is in intensive care and we now have millions of people living here that don't fit in and don't want to fit in, when in Rome and all that? England has taken the full force of this mass immigration so it does make me laugh when you read comments from the chap in Belfast. I do sense a change though in a lot of views from people who normally just put up or shrug their shoulders. As someone else said enough is enough and we need to make a stand.
Why not generalise on Muslims, they are the problem. All other Asians groups have come here and settled in. Yes they keep their cultures but they have also adapted, not the Muslims they want this to become a Muslim state. Wake up and smell the coffee before it is too late. Black, Brown and White need to UNITE against this threat to our whole way of life.
Aye, I'm, from Belfast so what could I possibly have to contribute to a debate about immigration and ethnic tensions? Except, Belfast is an increasingly multi-ethnic city. The second largest language spoken in Belfast isn't Irish or Ulster-Scots, it's Cantonese. There is also a long standing Jewish community that has been joined by immigrants from north African and Asian, as well a large eastern European community, among them a lot of Polish construction workers, who last year were employed strengthening and making higher the 'peace walls' that separate the Prods and Taigs. That's the other thing that perhaps qualifies me to offer a few comments on the situation in London and in the other provincial cities in the UK. (What? Did you think London was the only place people immigrate to?) Belfast has been, and continues to be, afflicted with the sort of tensions a number of you articulate.
@ 00.33, the sentiments you communicate could have come from a Irish catholic or Ulster protestant anytime over here. The context is different the politics of hate and suspicion are pretty much the same. Before you pursue them and decide to 'fight back', take a look at the recent history of Northern Ireland. Two communities - one native, the other settlers (if we want to get really historical about this) who kicked the shit out of each other for over 30 years, over 3000 dead, countless numbers maimed and injured. Eventually political and intellectual exhaustion set in. They fought themselves to a standstill and reached an unstable but potentially workable compromise, which was on the table in the early 1970s.
I'm no advocate of middle-class multi-culturalism (all that celebrating diversity by nipping out for a bottle of South African wine, an India curry and a Latin America DVD for the evening) but at the same time thinking that you can somehow close the boarders, pull up the draw bridge and announce 'we're full' flies in the face of what history teaches us about human nature.
As a specious we have crawled all over this globe. There are lots of species that are confined to one continent or region but not us humans. Since we could walk up right we have immigrated and colonised, all in the name of looking for the good life or to get Biblical about it - the promised land. The question is not how do we stop this - for that would be contrary to our nature - but how do we manage the obvious tensions which our wandering arouses?
I appreciate that you will encounter 'fundamentalists' and irreconcilables in all walks of life. But, let's be frank, they are few and it's always a mistake to legislate for the few if as a consequence you end up discriminating against the many. You will simply make that majority resentful and swell the ranks of the irreconcilables.
So rather than trying to expel people and curtail there movements, why not address the fundamental and material causes of antagonism between them - housing, jobs, health, education and wealth-fare resources? This is hard work. Living in the modern world is never easy. But it's a better option than fascism.
Good points Rab, but Fundamentalism is not always the product of poverty. I am very anxious about the idea of Thoughtcrime, but I would outlaw outward manifestations of religious fanaticism. I like France's approach, banning all religion from schools and the wearing of all religious symbolism in schools too. I also agree with banning the burka, in the same way as I would ban full face hoodies. It seems absurd to me that I would probably be arrested if I tried to go into a bank wearing a full face mask, yet if I was wearing a burka I would be greeted with a smile. The burka is a symbol of oppression and the "costume" of Hasidic Jews is a statement of superiority and division. When in Israel, I witnessed the superior, bullying nature of the Hassidics and their "uniform" marked them out as an elite, allowed to jump bus queues and walk through passport control unchallenged. It is religious uniforms like this and religious codes which forbid marriage across faiths that will cause tensions into the future. Let's ban the Saint Christopher, the Burka, ringlets and bits of string - the lot. Facism? Would we allow different paramilitary groups to walk our streets in uniform?
I think you're right HF. Fundamentalism is not a product of poverty. Those who lead fundamentalist movements are seldom poor. But its success is often a symptom of want and ignorance.
Also, I think we have to be careful intervening in people's religious affairs. The burka looks to me like a symbol of patriarchal oppression. But the 'cosmetic masks' that many western women wear is hardly a sign of their liberation. And in any case, there are Muslim women who feel that the burka is an integral part of their belief system.
To many westerns the burka looks alien and threatening. But I can remember a time (not so long ago) when dreadlocks were considered a sign of dangerous black militancy. These days dreadlocks are just another feature of the Anglo-British cultural landscape. I suspect that the burka will one day go the same way. Which begs the question, to what extent is the threat of the burka in the eye of the beholder.
If enough Muslim women find the burka objectionable (and many do) they'll sort it out themselves. Every oppressive system of produces its own rebels who struggle against that oppression.
I'm not a middle class, Guardian-reading, do gooder. Multiculturalism is seriously flawed. And the concerns and anxieties of some of your posters here need to be taken seriously by the powers that be. The white English working class have been neglected and pilloried but the challenges they face are not because of immigration. If we want to talk about threats to 'our way of life' then look at the decimation of the heavy industries in which the working class were employed. Those jobs have largely gone and with them the communities and lifestyles that they sustained. The commitment to full employment is history; the welfare state is a shadow of its former self and education is subservient to the needs of the economic model that destroyed those working class communities in the first place. It's a shite state of affairs and not the BNP or the EDL is going to fix it.
The levels of immigration we see today is a consequence of globalisation and the inequalities that it has perpetuated and sustain. But our leaders seem to think the economy is like the weather - something we can do nothing to control - so there is little point debating it in any serious way. So instead we have debates about culture, identity and the funny little differences between the various peoples who live here, declaring that we either celebrate this diversity or abhor it. Cultural diversity is neither here nor there. Follow the money.
Bloody hell Rab, now you've kicked it to a new level! Personally, I think Britain is a far better place for getting rid of coal mines, steel plants and production lines. Do we really want a society where people do the work of robots and machines?
The trouble is, we are an ugly race of people. Compare the average "Englishman" to the average European, and I know who I would prefer. As a people, we are belligerent, defensive, conservative, lazy and obsessed with the self. Our nation is all about ego. Thatcher exploited this to the full. She is lambasted for saying, "There's no such thing as society" but she was simply reflecting the selfishness that pervades British attitudes. I have switched to British here because the Scots, Welsh and Irish are not a lot different. In fact, the Troubles mark the Irish out as the worst of the bunch!
Rabelais
You have made some very good, rational points. I'd just like to commend you on that.
HF
Your last paragraph 12:53 was spot on.
Bow Boy
Why does it get to you so much when I agree with HF? Are people not allowed to agree with him? Would you like to take my freedom of choice away now too? You criticise me for not making "interesting" comments and then you begin by saying "go crawl up HF's arse again"? Would you like to contribute something intelligent and reply to my point that you shouldn't put all 'Muslims' into one group? Or am I asking for too much of you?
Fit in? Fit in to what? You don't even know who you are! What would like Muslims to fit into? Binge drinking? Under-age sex and teenage pregnancies? 300 girls under the age of 13, yes 13, get pregnant here every year. Would you like Muslims to add to this figure just to fit in?
Anonymous 08:05
"Why not generalise on Muslims"..hahahaha! How many GCSEs did you leave school with? With dumb arses like you, the powers that be won't need to try hard in their propaganda to brainwash you. You are their dream, a true zombie.
The problem you two have is this:
I was born here and lived here all my life. Haven't done a single bad thing ever. Left school with excellent marks (while your mates were busy being juvenile delinquents) and have not even had one detention in school let alone been in trouble with the law in general. I have worked most of my adult life and contributed in tax. I don't drink, smoke or take drugs and never have, or will be a burden on the NHS. I have respect for my neighbours (ask them...they're Caucasian and they'll tell you), for different religions and was brought up with respect and good social etiquette. I don't throw rubbish in the streets, I give up my seat for pregnant women and the old on buses. I pay 2.5% of my excess income to the poor every year. I don't indulge in extra-marital relationships or get drunk and roam the streets at 3 a.m vomiting. Why? I do this all because I am a Muslim. Now you tell me who is the better Brit, you or me? This is the thing you cannot stand, I am a better British citizen than you will ever be and I'm a Muslim :) So much for your generalising.
Why don't you go learn something about Islam? Scared are you? Scared that you may have to agree with what it says? I invite you to come and open your eyes...if you're hard enough. But you won't of course because not knowing is what makes you feel comfortable. I can only wish you the best of luck.
Worry not though. Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the world for no reason. The chances of your grandchildren being Muslims are very good. Don't worry, there is nothing wrong with this as I explained above. Muslims are wonderful people and your grandchildren will be good law abiding citizens. Anyway, don't have nightmares, do sleep well. Lots of love xxx
Muslims are wonderful people, that’s the best laugh I have had for a long time. Tell me why is it that Silks & Hindu’s hate you as much as we do? Your finale that Islam is the fastest growing religion should be a worry to all decent people. You are the scum of the earth who allow kids to become suicide bombers with the promise that they will go to a better life, no wonder you breed like rabbits. Can’t you get it through your thick skulls that we don’t want you here and we will drive you out. I don’t smoke or take drugs but do like a social drink, something wrong with that is there? Oh and by the way I own 3 houses and command a 6 figure salary some I which I donate to a worthy cause, wonder if you can guess which one? Enjoy your Saturday night with your arse in the air I am off out with the family for a nice steak washed down with a decent bottle of wine.
Stani, I have read the Qu'ran, in translation, and agree that it makes much more sense than our Bible, but to say that Islam will spread in this country will not help your argument and will stoke the anger of your opponents. I wish more would understand that the Qu'ran underpins the non aggression principles of the UN, but I wish a lot of "Muslims" would understand that too. The fact is, the Qu'ran, like the Old Testament, is a religious book written for a powerful people; Christianity is written for a people living in subjugation. As a result, it is easy to find justification for reprisals in the Qu'ran, whereas Jesus taught us to "turn the other cheek". The existence of the burka shows how Islam can be misinterpreted to justify subjugation and oppression of women, whilst Jihad is a principle that allows for hatred based on religion - on both sides of the divide. I know Jihad can be "internal" and can be about good conquering evil inside the individual but, too often, is is understood in terms of fighting against an external enemy. Outside of Paisley, I cannot remember (in the modern era) a man of the Christian church ever justifying hatred based on religious lines. Sadly, there are many Imams who do precisely that. Until Islam puts its house in order, it will generate race hate towards Muslims. Sadly, I think this is part of the game plan. By creating division, the fanatics seek to cultivate entrenchment and hatred. Muslims feel threatened so turn increasingly to extremism.
You claim to be a good citizen because you are a Muslim; that is potentially offensive because I do not need to be a Muslim or a Christian to know the difference between right and wrong. I am drinking a glass of wine as I type this; that doesn't make me a bad citizen. I have not lived my life as a saint when it comes to relationships, but that does not make me a bad citizen either.
Your religious book was written approximately 600 years after the birth of Christ and cherry picks from the New and Old Testaments. "Muhammed" received the Qu'ran over a period of years and the difficulty I have with Islam is that it is not the Qu'ran alone that establishes the rules but the Hadith too. Even if you accept that Muhammed heard the Qu'ran directly from Jibreel (which as an atheist I do not), I cannot understand how faith can then be dictated by the Hadith, which offers mutiple versions of the same story, depending upon which Imam it is traced back to through the Chinese Whispers chain of authority. That is a recipe for catastophe because it builds in corruption and perversion of the original message. Christians have persecuted Jews for 2000 years because of the Gospel of Mark. Mark invented the story of the Jews calling for the crucifixion of Jesus and saying "Let the blood be upon our heads" 60 years after the death of Christ. Why did he do it? Because the Romans were persecuting the Jews at the time and Mark was desperate to differentiate between Christians and Jews. It was a basic act of survival but Jews have been persucuted ever since - wrongly. That is the Christian version of the Hadith and shows the danger of reinventing history years after the event and then wrapping propaganda in a shroud of religion.
I do not wish to challenge your faith in any way but the danger of all religions is that they they seek to prove their superiority over others, claiming everything that is good for themselves and assigning everything that is evil to atheism / other religions. Your claim to be a good citizen because of Islam is a classic example of this. I do not need religion to know that I should not steal, kill, have sex with my neighbour's wife (God forbid!), pray to idols etcetera. I know because I have a moral conscience. I have no God but I have a mind of my own.
Yes Stani you are correct we do have a lot of our own crap so why do we want to add to it with all the crap that we have imported? We need a zero tolerance government that will allow the police to regain the streets. If we need to build more prisons build them. If you haven’t put in then you don't take out. Hang child killers and any other cold blooded killers. In the short term it may be harsh but like I said we need to regain the streets.
Bloody hell BB, I would hate to live in your police state. I have lived my life as a good citizen but have run into bad coppers in my time, including at Upton Park. Dereck Bentley was hung for an offence that everybody knew her had not committed. The Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six would be dead now, although innocent of the crimes that they were imprisoned for. Winston Silcott would be long dead for a crime he never actually committed. That could be you or me. The dangers we face in modern Britain are grossly exaggerated. We seem to have forgotten how we lived through the terror campaign of the IRA and how protection money was expected of any small business setting up and operating in the East End. Things are not as bad as many would have us believe. I feel much less threatened now than I did in the 70s when skinheads prowled the streets looking for heads to kick!
HF,
I don't believe for a moment the English are ugly. Anyone in any doubt should check out the pictures you post every time West Ham look like dropping into the bottom three. Now don't tell be all those bums belong to Californian girls ;-)
Good Luck,
Rab
HF
"but to say that Islam will spread in this country will not help your argument and will stoke the anger of your opponents", that was the purpose of what I said and I'm sure it had the desired effect. I didn't use the word spread but Muslim reverts (converts) will increase in this country and there is nothing bad with that. By my opponents getting angry about it, and you highlighting that it will not help my argument, you are suggesting there is something bad with that. There-in lies a problem.
Yes I agree, we can use most passages from most books for our own purpose if they are taken out of context. Most hatred, which is 'backed up' by passages from the Quran, uses passages taken out of their intened context. As for Jesus; we cannot be Muslim if we do not believe in Jesus. We revere him like Abraham, Moses and Muhammad (peace be upon them all). As he will prove when he returns. He is not the only thing Christianity and Islam have in common. There are aspects of the Bible that I believe but there are others which I cannot because they have been changed.
"Outside of Paisley, I cannot remember (in the modern era) a man of the Christian church ever justifying hatred based on religious lines". But there is no Islamic Scholar I know of who does this either (e.g of Scholars, Hamza Yusuf, or Tim Winter (brother of the Telegraph's football correspondent, Henry Winter. Tim is an outstanding Islamic Scholar, you can find him on youtube)). Imams just lead prayers. They may give radical messages but by mentioning that comparison you are showing that you fail to grasp how few of these 'Imams' are like this. I have been to many Mosques and listened to many Imams and have not come across one who has preached anything hateful. You would not believe the humane and peaceful messages they spread if I told you. You are free to go inside any Mosque and listen. No one can stop you as long as you remove your shoes before you go in and maintain a respectful silence. Please do see for yourself. Bad ones obviously exist e.g Abu Hamza, but you get these extreme people in all demographics. Imams have no power over Islamic jurisprudence. Yes, very few may send out hateful messages but lots of people send out hateful messages........
.......I don't think Islam needs to put its house in order, I think many 'Muslims' do, which is probably what you meant, as the negative aspects of their culture and tradition and behaviour is often seen as Islamic when it is not and puts Islam and all Muslims in a bad light because people generalise.
"You claim to be a good citizen because you are a Muslim; that is potentially offensive because I do not need to be a Muslim or a Christian to know the difference between right and wrong". This is the part of you reply that disturbed me the most because it is most unlike you. I was talking about me, a Muslim. Anonymous and Blow Boy were generalising and putting Muslims all under one label. I was demonstrating to them that THIS Muslim is a good British citizen. It was simply a reply to their generalisation. No where did I say you have to be a Muslim to be a good citizen or that Christians, Atheists, Nihilists etc, could not be good citizens. That's well off the markr HF.
"the difficulty I have with Islam is that it is not the Qu'ran alone that establishes the rules but the Hadith too". You are having this difficulty because you don't understand the purpose of Hadith and how they were compiled (certainly not Chinese whispers). Don't worry though, many Muslims do not either. Hadiths (narrations of what the Prophet said and did) are used merely to clarify aspects of the Quran. It is the Quran that takes pre-eminence as it were. The Quran is in it's original form (unlike the Bible and the Gospel of Mark which you mentioned) so uncorrupted. There is no such invention in the Quran such as that which Mark did in the Bible like you said. Once you watch this lecture, you will see that it would have been pretty difficult to invent something like that, and have it taken seriously, in the Hadith too.
Here is the lecture on Hadith, by Dr Jonathan Brown from University of Washington. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XulKyLhS694) It will give you a new found respect for Hadith. It is a fascinating lecture which is worth watching completely to grasp the subject. It is better to know, then not to know. If you have any questions then let me know and I will try my best to answer them. The sound quality is low so you'll have to turn it up.
Stani, I am in no way trying to challenge your faith but I am expressing a view from outside your faith. I do understnad the purpose of the Hadith but will follow your link and come back to you. Of course Chinese Whispers are involved. The Hadith is based upon a chain of authority and has been handed down through an oral tradition. The opening always lists who told it to who and who he heard it from and who he heard it from. The same technique is used in the Bible with the desperate attempt to prove that Jesus is a descendent of Abram. Look at the multiple accounts of Muhammad's (peace be upon Him) journey through the seven realms of Heaven. His wife tells us that he never left her side during this spiritual journey and yet, many versions related in the Hadith will tell you it was a physical journey. I have read translated accounts and they vary in what supposedly happened. They can't all be right unless there were multiple Muhammeds making multiple journeys to the lote tree of the furthest boundary. But when stories are passed down, they change. Look at the debates on here about player performances within an hour of a game. When stories are passed through generations, they inevitably change, especially when so little was actually written down. Why is there not a defined account? Because factions within the broad Islamic Chruch favour one Imam over another because it reinforces a power base in both the religion and in the broader society. Look at Iraq and Iran, look at how the Church divides!
I am happy to continue the debate if you are but I really do not want to cause offence. That in itself feels to me like a weakness in religion, the way an intellectual challenge is read as a personal attack. I am not saying this is the case with yourself, I just don't want to offend
Stani - I'm not sure I understand the relevance of your point above about being such good citizen?
Are you saying that you're primarily such a good citizen because you follow Islamic ideals such as not drinking etc. That could be said of most religions, they all aim to promote following a good and 'righteous' path in life.
To me you sound like a good hearted, hard working, responsible individual irrelevant of whether you're a muslim, sikh, christian or atheist.
I grew up in Seven Kings in East London and at school was one of 4 non asians in a class of 30 children. As a result, most of my friends are of Asian decent, many muslims.
I can assure you that many of the muslims that I know are nothing like you, as are many of my white friends (others are very similar to you again as are some of my white friends). Like all social groups there are good and bad in each.
I know many muslims and christians that live incredibly hypocritical lives. On the exterior they present themselves as devout followers of a religion but in private they are completely different beasts. It's all a front.
I can't remember the last Muslin wedding that I went to that didn't have bottles of 'special' or 'diet' soft drink on the table that contained Gin or Vodka for those that wanted to drink alcohol(including many 'devout' muslims).
I don't have a problem with this at all but I have to agree with HF on his point that you don't need a religious 'ID tag' to be a decent citizen. The idea of that simply promotes elitism and provokes resentment from people with different beliefs - that's how a lot of these arguments start.
I for one completely believe in multi-culturalism but for it to work we 'all' have to respect each other's beliefs and history and that includes immigrants understanding the concerns of British people trying to protect what they perceive as their own way of life, whether they agree with it or not.
Your closing paragragh about Islam being the fastest growing religion in the world may be true but is hardly the responsible comment of the righteous man you have presented yourself as. Such comments will only further antagonise and provoke those that vilify Islam.
Just to clarify, This is not written as an attack so please don't take as one.
HF
Hopefully you will see after viewing that video why I feel it is a bit degrading to refer to Hadith as Chinese Whispers, which is essentially a game. I don't blame you, it's just because you do not know. The science of Hadith is one of the greatest achievements of man. There are various levels of Hadith, some are reliable and so followed, and some less reliable and not followed. The reliability is judged by various methods too. Not all Hadiths are taken as authentic so you will read variations but they are not necessarily relied upon. They have all gone through a thorough process which Dr Brown will explain better than me. But, it is vital to remember that the Quran is the final say.
The most important point I would like to mention in regards to this is the point on the oral tradition of it, because it is very easy to dismiss Hadiths (because of the orality of them) straight away and may prevent people exploring further. Today, we have cameras, PDAs, dictaphones, pens, paper etc etc (and blogs :)). Anything we want to remember, transmit, we use these technologies. Back in them days, this was not the case obviously. Their orality of transmission and remembering mustn't be scoffed at because of these ignorant times we live in. their ability to remember what was said was many times better than ours is in general because they were almost forced, for want of a better word, to do so because there was no other means. There is no way we can compare this to Chinese Whispers OR oral transmission of today (and certainly not West Ham fans talking about player performances!). Times have changed and so have our needs. Let me give you a example which demonstrates this effect to a lesser degree. Grandad is playing Countdown with his grandson and a sum comes up. Grandad says finished" but grandson says, "wait, I need a calculator". Grandad says "Why? What do hey teach you in school these days. Back when I was a young lad, there were no calculators and we had to these these sums in our head". Yes?....and I bet grandad's answer was spot on by the way.
Anonymous 13:05
Of course I don't take it is an attack. Thanks for your thoughts.
I reiterate once again, my answer was specifically in response to two previous people who generalised on Muslims saying that they are all bad. I explained to them that everything that I am was because of my religion i.e. not all Muslims are bad, look at me. I was only talking specifically about myself and only in regards to answering their allegation. I am not saying people of other faiths cannot be good, neither am I saying that all Muslims are good. I would be silly to think such a thing. Some of the best people I have met are not Muslims, and some of the worst I met are. My point to them was basically what you said "Like all social groups there are good and bad in each", with the explanation that it was my religion that made ME like this. This doesn't mean it is the only method of being noble. I am saying to them, I have been nothing but good for this country, better for it than them in many cases. This is what they cannot bear, it burns inside them.
The point you and HF have made is from a misunderstanding and a pre-conceived idea. You have attributed something to me that I clearly have not said. You may have heard it said somewhere before, but it was definitely not me and not here.
I agree with your point about people who come over here understanding the cultural identity and respecting the law of the land and people's feelings. But, it is vitally important that we distinguish between the leeches and the hard working people who have and do underpin the very foundations of this country and important we do not generalise like the zombies up there. HF has made this point up above in regards to dirty jobs these immigrants do that some 'British' people would not touch. There is also the other side of it; the nurses, dentists, drs, pharmacists, many of these are immigrants or the children of immigrants......
.........And of course we need to respect each others traditions, cultures, religions etc. But to do this, we cannot turn a blind eye and not learn about others. The wrong statements, false accusations I hear in regards to Islam is without precedent. No other faith, no other group would bear the attacks this religion receives in these times.This has two effects though; to the zombies, it increases their hate and anger but to the intelligent thinking people, it makes them ask questions. People who were responsible for making the Holy Quran the fastest selling book after the sad events of 9/11. These are people that wanted to know, is this really what this religion says? (Yvonne Ridley, Tim Winter, Napoleon from Tupac's Outlawz group, Stacey from episode 1 of Muslim Driving School, spring to mind). I hope more people do it in regards to the subject of women in Islam, the women that Islam supposedly suppresses. If they could see the sayings about women and the rights they have, they would know how wrong they were. After Afro-Americans, it is women who are the highest number of reverts (converts) to Islam in America and there must be a real reason why. But that's for those who ponder.
"Your closing paragragh about Islam being the fastest growing religion in the world may be true but is hardly the responsible comment of the righteous man you have presented yourself as. Such comments will only further antagonise and provoke those that vilify Islam."
Firstly, whether I 'present' myself as righteous, or I really am righteous, only God knows. Secondly, why? What is wrong with the above? What is it that scares you about Islam and the above fact? I said this to HF and now I say it to you, you are making that argument because you think Islam is bad - simple. If you thought it was good, you would not sit so uneasy with such a simple fact. I just told them that people are coming into a religion that they hate. I told them so they ask why. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not showing off that I'm a Muslim and you're not. I am not claiming Islam for myself. You're free to be Muslim. I invite you to come into Islam.
The affirmation of Islam is "I bear witness that there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad (pbuh) is his messenger". If you believe this then you are Muslim (Yes HF, it does mean that as an atheist, you are almost half way there ("I bear witness that there is no God") :))
LOL Very good Stani. I suspect I will stay "half way there" though. I have just researched a piece on how Christianity survived and spread despite persecution in the first four centuries a.d. One of the reasons is that it looked at the failings of Judaism and reformed. Islam then had a further 600 years to study Christianity and make populist adjustments.
The concern I have about Islam spreading in the West is that it will provoke a negative reaction. It is already happening in Switzerland and France.
@ Stani (I'm the anonymous poster from 13.05 above)
I don't have a fear or issue with Islam being the fastest growing religion in the world but in the context that you originally presented that statement it came across as an antagonistic/agressive statement which I'm sure the people that you call 'Zombies' would interpret as a threat on what they perceive as their usual way of life.
Like I say there's nothing wrong with Islam growing at a great rate but your context made it sound like some form of conquering crusade of Islam in Britain and comments like that are, in my opinion, irresponsible and unnecessarily provocative.
Comments like that are one of the main reasons that so many usually decent non muslim UK citizens feel threatened by Islam. Granted many are ignorant to the true values of Islam but statements such as yours hardly help improve their perceptions.
There's a good chance that such comments will simply fuel the 'Zombies' ignorance and anger towards Islam even further.
How do you think Christian groups would be perceived/treated if they were to make public statements to that effect in strict Islamic states in the middle east? I very much doubt that the tolerance would be anywhere near the levels currently offered to Muslims as a minority in the UK.
I'm not racist and have no problem with Islam at all, in fact as an atheist it's one of the few religions that I can appreciate. What does concern me though is that, like it or not, Islam now has a negative stigma with many people in the UK and I would encourage all UK muslims, including yourself, to educate and empathise with your fellow Britains rather than feed their ignorance.
HF
Well I will sincerely pray for you. Look at it this way; believing that there is a God (who created everything) is crazy, but believing that there is no God (and all this just happened by chance), is even more crazy. Why not choose the lesser of the two crazies? :)
The reason Islam spreading provokes a negative reaction is because people believe what the powers that be want them to believe. They may deny it, but even sub-consciously, these people are negative, to put it mildly, towards Islam. I will demonstrate one such example in the last paragraph at the end of these comments.
Anonymous
The context that I originally presented that argument is what you have not understood all along. It was in conversation with two automatons up there. They were being insulting to me e.g:
"Can’t you get it through your thick skulls that we don’t want you here and we will drive you out."
"Why not generalise on Muslims, they are the problem."
so I choose to speak to them in that way as I explained to HF above about my comment being for an intended purpose and it having the desired effect. There are some people who will never change or understand someone so there is no point in being kind to them. If you compare the manner in which I engaged with you and HF, to how I engaged with them, then this in itself should exonerate me in your eyes from this point you have made. Why do you fail to acknowledge this difference?
"How do you think Christian groups would be perceived/treated if they were to make public statements to that effect in strict Islamic states in the middle east?"
This is a flawed comparison. Which strict Christian state did I make those comments in? Also, have you not read the comments that are coming in my direction?
"Comments like that are one of the main reasons that so many usually decent non muslim UK citizens feel threatened by Islam."
I would class you and HF as decent UK citizens and I have engaged with you in a respectful manner. Why do you need to feel threatened? I did not speak to you like I spoke to them because I differentiated and didn't put you all in one group. You should differentiate between my comment's context and who they were directed at. I am sure you would not speak to your parents like you would speak to someone who has just pushed in front of you in a queue. I think they call it 'register' in language. We have a different register for different people. I have educated you about Islam here no? But you still show signs of that stigma you mentioned as I will explain below.
What saddens me the most, and speaks louder than anything, is that you felt the need to fine-tooth comb my comments but not even mention, let alone scrutinize and confront, any of their comments. By not saying anything, you may as well have agreed with them. I think that in itself speaks louder than anything, and that is what makes me truly sad and highlights the task good Muslims face in Britain. We may need to put some of our house in order, but a lot of others need to look at themselves too.
Stani, I think you are being unfair to our anonymous contributor. He makes clear his contempt for the racists by engaging in a civil manner with you in the first place.
I like you mate, and value your contributions to this site, but the passion (your register if you like) on this subject reads as defensive even in civil debate. I am not surprised because it is something you feel passionate about, but it is that very passion that worries non Muslims and provokes alienation. As a "race" the majority of us look askance at passionate Christians, never mond Muslims. For most people in Britain, religion is something that is personal and should not be advertised. "You have your god, he has his, I don't have one at all, no worries" would sum it up for most. That's why people detest Jehovah's Witnesses: "Don't knock on my door uninvited, forcing religion down my throat!"
Thanks for praying for me but I fear I am a lost cause. I do not discount the existence of God, but I do not accept your religion or any other religion. Strip away your faith and look at it objectively, and you will see the hand of man rather than the hand of God behind all religions.
The reason I didn't scrutinise their comments or engage with them is because I didn't feel that they would engage in the discussion on a sensible, rational or intellectual level which is a back handed compliment to you.
That doesn't make me in agreement with them at all and I take that insinuation as an insult. You need to be far more careful when making throw away comments about people you don't even know.
Sorry but I simply don't agree that you should make provokative statements to the posters above because they were attacking you. They're quite clearly ignorant and all you do is fuel their ignorance and that of others like them even further.
Why lower yourself to their standards? It just perpetuates the situation.
Cool, don't worry about it. Take care.
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