Tuesday, 1 June 2010

Liverpool Bites Back - Don't Forget The Mighty Gerry Byrne!

(The following article was submitted by a Liverpool fan whilst spitting his neighbour's nails!)

West Ham won the World Cup did they? Funny but I could of sworn players like Charlton and Stiles (Man United), Hunt and Callaghan (Liverpool - We had Gerry Byrne in the squad as well), Banks (Leicester City), Bonetti (Chelsea), Greaves (Spurs), Springett (Sheffield Wednesday), Eastham (Arsenal), Wilson (Everton) and Cohen (Fulham) ALL were involved as well.

Now that's what? NINE different clubs OTHER than West Ham that supplied more than HALF the squad with Liverpool (with 3) having AS MANY players involved as West Ham did with Moore, Hurst and Peters. Yes, your players played an important role but DON'T overegg your pudding my Friend.

It's clear after all that WITHOUT the likes of Hunt, Callaghan, Charlton, Stiles, Banks, Cohen, Wilson and Greaves there in the SQUAD - Do you REALLY think England would have even REACHED the final? Never mind WON it? Of course not - It was a squad game back then in the BIG tournaments for National Sides - The only difference NOW is that's true of Clubs as WELL.............

To conclude; If you want to argue about CURRENT footballing talent from the City of Liverpool? Then explain to me just WHO has come from West Ham recently and their 'Academy' possessing levels of talent even CLOSE to that of Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard who are not only BOTH Scousers born and bred but also THE best two Footballers England has produced in the past decade or so by FAR? And West Ham can offer whom precisely to match THAT?

With regard to what we've done for England NOW? Well, let me see, we also have the current England Right Back in our ranks (Johnson), his probable replacement (Carragher - Who CAN play Right back as one of his TWO specialist positions), the Probable England Goalkeeper James spent much of his main career at Anfield, Peter Crouch who is England's NEXT most important striker AFTER Rooney was moulded into the international scoring force he now is BY our manager Mr Benitez circa 2005 - 2008 (remember when the WHOLE country - including no doubt idiots like YOU laughed at him for not scoring? I do and guess WHO gave him the confidence and support he NEEDED to SMASH that drought?), Stephen Warnock whose a valued squad member as backup for Ashley Cole on the left spent MANY years at Anfield as well and I think it's safe to say THIS time that IF England win the World Cup (and it's a bloody BIG If) then THIS time, Liverpool can safely be said to have had a FAIR bit to do with it.

THOSE my friend are the facts of the matter this time. I suggest YOU deal with them as You seem VERY reluctant to accept that well as West Ham have done for England in the past - Liverpool have done EQUALLY well for the national side and currently have a GREAT deal of influence on the England Team, FAR more than YOU'LL ever admit anyway. You may not like what's clear to everyone else but you'll just have to accept it won't you? As it's not going to change ANY time soon.............


Hammersfan said...

LOL Let's get the scales out here shall we? Gerry Byrne or Geoff Hurst? Hmmm tricky one! Yes of course there were EIGHT other players on the pitch when we won the World Cup but there were 10 other players supporting Maradona, but all the other 10 could have been replaced and Argentina would still have won the World Cup. But without Maradona?

Moore was the one truly World Class player in the team of 66, Hurst banged in three in the final and Peters...oh yes he got the fourth. Important role? What a bloody understatement! All three didn't just PLAY for West Ham, they were MADE in West Ham!

Hunt mind you got an assist, by claiming Hurst's goal had crossed the line rather than following it up and putting it in the net!

In your desperation to make the case for Liverpool, you name players your side not only BOUGHT but actually made worse. James was named Calamity whilst playing for Liverpool. West Ham and Portsmouth rescued his career. Benitez did his level best to destroy Crouch. Pompey rescued him after his Liverpool nightmare! You forgot Heskey by the way, another player Liverpool tried to destroy.

Gerrard? What has he done for England? Have you noticed how we have underachieved throughout his international career? And so have Liverpool if it comes to that. I would be delighted if Gerrard banged home the winner in the World Cup final but not many people are betting on that, are they?

If we look at the probable squad, Johnson, Defoe, Joe Cole, Ferdinand and Carrick all made their Premiership debuts at West Ham. That is a greater contribution than any other club! And, if we play your game, we can claim David James and maybe Matty Upson too! But we don't need to play your game do we?

And claiming Rooney? A player made in Everton and who now plays for the team that wins the titles Liverpool fans can now only dream of? How desperate is that!

Thanks for the contribution!

Hammersfan said...

You mentioned Gerry - what about the Pacemakers? And don't give me the Beatles, never mind the World Cup, they couldn't even qualify for Eurovision!

Anonymous said...

The only good thing to come out of Liverpool is Everton

Anonymous said...

You forgot Lampard Fanno. Back to 66 we very nearly had four as the Banks deal fell through just before the start of the tournament.

Hammersfan said...

Bloody hell, so I did! Every bit as good as Gerrard, perhaps better!

Dagenham Dave said...

Let's not forget that we brought John Terry through our youth team ranks before Chelsea stole him from us.

Scousers are the most deluded football fans outside of Tottenham

Hammersfan said...

I'm not sure Chelsea stole him. His Mum was wandering round Upton Park and slipped him under her coat when nobody was looking. Then his Dad sold him to Chelsea for 2 kilos of coke! Best not advertise any association with Terry!

Stani Army said...

Who's this John Terry bloke?

Liverpool fan I think by claiming Johnson as yours, you've really let your argument down.

However, I have said before that as far as natural English talent is concerned, it is the Eastend and Merseyside that produce the best.

Anonymous said...

As a proud scouser and a massive BNP supporter can i say I like the hammers and the author of this blog is pathetic with his anti Liverpool nonsense. Up the hammers

Davo said...

Yes,West Ham's England players did fantastic in the 1966 World cup.
However, they did feed each other!
Roger Hunt(No8 inside forward) who scored 18 goals in 17 games for England immediately prior to the same World Cup,played in all 1966 WC games but never received a pass during the whole championship ???

Anonymous said...

wat happened to the press conference today HF. you said avram grant would be the new manager today. wrong again HF. lol

Simon W said...

Rooney's a Liverpudlian yes? Even the author of that bigoted piece of crap you called an article before isn't TO thick to work that one out no? And as to Gerry Byrne - He IS mighty - He completed the 1965 Cup Final with a broken collarbone (after playing with said injury for 70 odd minutes). In case you're TO Thick to work it out BTW without the aid of a marker pen, blackboard or in your case Crayons and Six feet high neone Lights - I was speaking of the CITY of Liverpool NOT the Club with regard to our players produced.

Incidentally, David James spent the BULK of his career at Anfield - You know his MOST productive years - I believe West Ham were little more than a stop on his road down to Portsmouth where he is now. Jamo's been to Aston Villa, West Ham AND Portsmouth since he left us but at NONE of them did he spend a long amount of time comparable to his Anfield years. And since you were talking about the Cockney 'Academy' earlier I decided to retaliate with players from the CITY of Liverpool - Even without Rooney, We STILL have Gerrard.

And besides as I said before and you STILL didn't answer, WHO exactly from West Ham or ANY OTHER London club has emerged from Academies in recent years with even one HALF the Natural Footballing Talent of Gerrard OR Rooney? And don't say Lampard - Good as he is, he's not a PATCH on Gerrard when it comes to rescuing a lost cause OR dragging a team up by it's bootstraps - BOTH of which Gerrard excels at.

Lampard plays well when his TEAM plays well, have you ever noticed just HOW anonymous he becomes when his team play BADLY? For every Croatia 2008 game - Lampard will ALWAYS have a game like Ecuador 2006 under his belt where he couldn't hit a barn door and the whole TEAM were dire - Or more dire still when we played Russia in 2007 - WHERE was Lampard THAT night when we needed him in Moscow? You want to know just WHY Gerrard plays so fitfully for England mate?

I'll tell you why - I've just discussed the reason with you - Lampard. Gerrard is ALWAYS moved out of the attacking midfield/behind the forward position he did SO well in recently to shoehorn an inferior player into the team - Left Midfield, Right Midfield, Holding Midfield - Gerrard's played them ALL to accomodate Lampard but I ask you this those who pathetically claim Frank is the better player than Steven, just WHAT would happen IF the situation was reversed and it was LAMPARD who was moved around? I'll tell you shall I? That WON'T happen as moving Lampard would be a disaster - he ONLY can play one position - Gerrard can play Lampard's favourite position and a HOST of others - He's THE most talented English midfielder since Bobby Charlton possibly since Duncan Edwards but due to the blinkered insistence on including Lampard I doubt we'll ever see his best for England.

England should BUILD their team round Gerrard and Rooney NOT fit the two of them in. IF they did that, THEN you'd see the best of them and your so called 'arguments' against the two of them would DIE in your throats before being voiced.........

Simon W said...

The insistence that we play Lampard is part of the same blinkered 'we are England' mentality that the likes of West Ham's fans Engineered!!! It is THAT which means we've not had an England Manager whose used a SET formation for nearly 40 years, it is THAT which sees our youngsters taught to WIN games rather than DEVELOP their skills and it is THAT which insists our defenders ''LAUNCH'' the bloody ball instead of PASSING it ala Continental International sides and you all wonder WHY our national side are SO dismal/moan about it/complain WHILE shouting that our kids should WIN not develop their skills/That our defenders should LAUNCH it etc?

Look around you, the ''We are England'' mentality is THE answer and it WON'T change until we shed that and LEARN from those who passed us by LONG ago. I don't think the question should be WHY Liverpool the City has produced THE most talented two of England's players by a LONG way but instead just WHERE are their replacements? WHERE is our talent pool? We aren't BREEDING players like Gerrard and Rooney enough as a NATION and when we DO, not enough of them get through the ridiculous Academy systems. And THAT I believe is this country's REAL problem along with those caused by the establishment for our managers. We WON'T change until that problem is eliminated.......

Deane said...

I heard they had to ship Terry out quick before the lads started getting girlfriends

Simon W said...

I just read your unbelievable rubbish about Heskey and Crouch!! To say it was pathetic is an understatement not to mention utterly LACKING in FACTS. Benitez bought Crouch, showed Faith in him when NO-ONE else would and played him, played him, played him ad nauseum until he FINALLY scored; Crouch was then one of our MAIN strikers for TWO Seasons and WOULD have been for longer given half a chance.

However, the ONLY reason Crouch went is because he REFUSED to play second fiddle on the bench to Fernando Torres who I believe is quite clearly FAR superior to ANY of the England Strikers (including Rooney - he who wins the titles we supposedly dream of to try and CATCH UP to our totals!! Yes fool, we WON those titles FAR before United EVER did!!!).

I bet at the same time your jeering Rafa' for putting Crouch on the bench as a backup option that it's idiots like you who CHEER United's squad and go on about their fabled 'strength in depth' isn't it? Well, newsflash idiot - RAFA WAS TRYING TO CREATE PRECISELY THAT AT ANFIELD!!! It's not HIS fault if Crouch didn't want to be as Berbatov and LOOK at Crouch's international scoring rate WHILE at Liverpool - It went through the roof and he became one of England's most prolific EVER strikers.

As to Heskey? Houllier showed similar faith in HIM as a striker until his embarrassing propensity to miss 'Barn Door' sitters from a yard out began to cost us big time and then? He (quite rightly) benched him. Heskey moaned and claimed he had ''nothing to prove at Liverpool'' but the opposite was true - he'd FAILED at the highest level and had EVERYTHING to prove - He didn't as he was to LAZY for the challenge and since then he's middled around a series of clubs like Wigan and Birmingham, doing nothing of note but Somehow becoming vital to England And isn't it just an indictment of the class of forward we NOW produce that he is SO vital no?

David James? Yes, he made some high profile mistakes for us but he also won a number of 'Best Goalkeeper' awards WHILE at Anfield AND he was in a team challenging for the title on at least 2 different occasions. Other than the 2008 FA Cup at Pompey - he's done WHAT since leaving us? You want to play silly b*stards do you? Well then consider this - I think just as much as West Ham supposedly 'made' Hurst, Peters and Moore that Liverpool MADE James, Crouch AND Gerrard what they are. We probably had a lot to do with Heskey's current prominence as well if you look at just HOW much Sven picked him WHEN HE WAS AT LIVERPOOL!!!

Oh yes and to your earlier argument. Peters I'll give you but as to the others? No you COULD have replaced Geoff Hurst in the England team - There was a BETTER striker waiting in the wings - his name was Jimmy Greaves. Same goes for Moore - Given a slightly different set of circumstances Byrne COULD have replaced Moore. (who was every BIT the class defender he was - He won the League title in 1964 and 1966 with Liverpool AND the afore mentioned 1965 FA Cup so he must have had SOMETHING about him no?....And Bobby won what precisely at that time?).

Your argument re Maradona was correct. He WAS a once in a lifetime player but for you to fail to see that 1966 was a TEAM effort created by Ramsey and held together by his SQUAD is ridiculous - Take out ANY of them and England WOULD have failed - Even all the reports from the time say we weren't a team dependent on superstars back then, stating that most of our games were boring with the emphasis on 'teamwork'
(wingless wonders anyone?) and that we mainly GROUND opponents down rather than winning via flair or star players; And if your putting Hurst in Maradona's class? Well, I'm sorry but THAT is stupid. We MAY one day put Messi up there but for now? There's only ONE other player even remotely close to/better than Diego as a player and HE was the best player of them all.............

Hammersfan said...

Wow Simon, love the passion! But I think you should take care mate, your ticker will give out on you if you get this angry about everything.

I'll answer your tirade in stages and in no particular order. I did not compare Hurst to Maradona, that would be bloody stupid. I said Moore was our one World Class player in 66 and you are a fool if you think Byrne was in his class. I think Pele knows a bit about football and he described Moore as the BEST defender he ever played against. Moore, between 64 and 66 won three trophies by the way, FA Cup, Cup Winners Cup and World Cup. He did so playing for East End family club West Ham, not one of the footballing giants, and he did so having "recovered" from cancer, which was to take him far too early sadly. You really do your argument no good whatsoever by trying to belittle Moore. I will get back to you on your other points later. My dinner is now being served. Do keep looking in!

T.I.S said...

you're an idiot, do you not understand that we have little to celebrate as a club, and therefore blow the whole 'we won the world cup' out of proportion. even though we did :)

Hammersfan said...

Why are we not producing young talent - because of managers like Benitez and clubs like Liverpool. What kids get a chance to come through at Liverpool? You quote Warnock but he had to leave to break through and both Carragher and Gerrard were fixtures before Rafa arrived. Benitez just packs his team with mediocre foreign players. You quote Rooney, well I would add Rodwell, and it is no coincidence that he is at Everton too. If every club adopted Liverpool's approach, we wouldn't have an England team!

Man Utd produced Beckham and Giggs, both at least the equal of Gerrard. They also produced Scholes, Butt and the Nevilles as well of course. Who, Gerrard, Fowler (who couldn't hack it at International level), Owen and Carragher apart, have Liverpool produced since 1990?

West Ham, meanwhile, have produced Lampard, Joe Cole, Johnson, Defoe, Carrick, and Rio despite being a "little" club. Tomkins will go on to play for England from the current crop of kids and last season, we were starting Collison, Hines, Stanislas, Noble and Tomkins from our Academy. Spence also made his Prem debut in the last game of the season. To blame West Ham for England's failures is absurd. Without West Ham, England would struggle to field a team!

Gerrard is a very good player but he is not a great player. I've only seen three GREAT outfield England players in my lifetime: Moore, Gascoigne and Rooney. Behind those three I would rank a second tier of Shearer, Bryan Robson, Beckham and Hoddle. After that elite group come the "Very Goods" including Gerrard, Lampard, Rio, Waddle, Samson, Ashley Cole, Sherringham,(yes he was THAT good), Lineker, Adams...I'm sure there are others in the same bracket who I have forgotten. Owen should be there but sadly injuries have destroyed him.

Hammersfan said...

Get your facts right with David James. He played 216 games for Liverpool; he has played 474 for his other clubs! He only became an England regular AFTER he left Liverpool.

By the way, I forgot McMannaman, not that he ever fulfilled his potention for England, like the other Spice Girls!

Hammersfan said...

Heskey was an exciting talent when he joined Liverpool but the crowd didn't want him to succeed because he wasn't Owen or Fowler. He was an England player before he went to Liverpool and blossomed again after he escaped the Anfield cul de sac. Benitez made a big mistake when he sold Crouch. But why would he keep him? The guy is English!

Simon W said...

Ok Hammersfan since YOU to seem willing to ‘take up the cudgels’ as it were. Please allow me a little time to Destroy your arguments (or what passes for them) in detail in reverse order. I’ll TRY and be polite this time to as a bonus. Firstly – Emile Heskey. He was Indeed an exciting talent when he joined Liverpool and as to this crap about ‘the crowd’ not wanting his success as he’s not Owen or Fowler.

Allow me to enlighten you on a couple of things here mate as you Clearly think you know it all about our club when In fact you know NOTHING. Our crowd Chanted Heskey’s name Repeatedly – Don’t you remember the chants ALL the time for at least 3-4 years Whenever LFC played of ‘Emiillile Hessskey’? Fowler was INJURED badly when Heskey came so he Had to play. ‘Wanting’ him to succeed or not had Nothing to do with it and Houllier supported him FAR beyond when he became utterly Useless as a striker. Persisting with him indeed right until He was sacked and Heskey was sold and far beyond when most of our fan’s patience had long since run out.

As I said, he was an exciting talent when he joined us yes, he scored 20 or so goals in his first season with us – but THAT WAS AS GOOD AS IT GOT!!! He was Repeatedly played as a striker in the seasons after that but his goal output steadily dropped and eventually Fowler was Sold the year after Heskey arrived came BECAUSE of Emile, so quite Where you got the ridiculous argument that he Couldn’t succeed Because of Fowler and Owen (who our crowd Never appreciated, rarely if Ever chanted for and now hate with a passion) from, I’ll Never know. Heskey scored as follows in the seasons he was at Liverpool; 2000/2001: 22, 2001/2002: 14, 2002/2003: 9 and 2003/2004: 12. Evidence of a steady decline if ever there was one no? No doubt he’d have been booed to the rafters with demands for Redknapp, Roeder, Curbishley, Zola etc (delete as appropriate) to get rid IF he’d played for your lot no? As to Heskey being an England player Before and After Anfield? What about the THIRTY FOUR appearances he made for England whilst he was a Liverpool Player? Along with the 4 goals he scored during that time?

Actually, as he was central to the Destruction of Germany in Munich in 2001 (even VERY rarely for him, scoring) and as for most of his time at Liverpool, Sven Erikkson EMULATED the Liverpool attack with an Owen-Heskey axis? I think it’s safe to say we had rather a lot to do with his England successes at that time no? And to conclude, How many times do I Have to tell you? Crouch WANTED to leave – Rafa’ offered him a New contract – How can it be Rafa’s fault for selling him when Peter had not the patience to sit on the bench behind THE best striker on the planet today when we bought Fernando Torres? I’ll repeat One more time shall I? PETER CROUCH WANTED TO LEAVE LIVERPOOL – RAFAEL BENITEZ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!!! Right, glad we’ve cleared That one up. Next I’ll deal with the equal amount of garbage you’ve written about David James shall I?………

Simon W said...

Now as I said, onto David James. I DID get my facts right with him or was I wrong when I said he’d played More times for Liverpool than ANY of his other clubs? He played 89 times for Watford, 67 for Aston Villa, 91 for your good selves at West Ham, 93 for Manchester City and 134 thus far for Portsmouth – Guess how many times he played for Liverpool (and yes I Did leave them out of that little lot on purpose). He played 216 times for us which unless I’m very much mistaken is MORE than Any of his other clubs no?

So I repeat again WHAT precisely in my earlier argument that he’d played More at Anfield than anywhere else was mistaken? Precisely………Nothing. It is you who has got Your facts and research wrong and you who thus undermines your Own arguments rather spectacularly when you publish such bilge as established facts only to have said ‘arguments’ blown apart within minutes of them being found to be false. I suggest You do your homework next time my Friend. Especially when you’re researching My team!!!

As to Steve Mcmanaman not fulfilling his potential? Are you sure? He scored in a European Cup Final, won La Liga twice AND helped Power England to the Semi-Finals of a major Championship in 1996 where they were an awfully telegraphed penalty from Gareth Southgates’ worth of possibly reaching the Final – That is further than ANY England team has been Since 1996 and further than Any other England side before that got except in 1966, 1968 and 1990 when they also reached Semi-Finals.

I think the fact that England lost all of those 4 semi-finals bar 1966’s is more telling of a lack of bottle on the part of our national side than any fault of Mcmanaman’s. The fact is he had more success in an England shirt with His particular England side than ANY of his successors have so again, your so called ‘argument’ is spectacularly undermined by your lack of research and truly WOEFUL lack of facts. You Really don’t learn your lesson do you? Oh well, I’m happy to carry on handing out such lessons re arguments until you learn yours. Who knows, you MIGHT learn one day? I doubt it though. ‘Those who are wrong are Always convinced of their own righteousness even when it does not exist’. You, my friend are no exception to that old saying.……

Simon W said...

Glad you enjoy my ‘passion’ by the way. Didn’t know it mattered but there you go. Anyway, I’m going to go slightly ‘out of sync’ now and deal with your FIRST argument here as (not for the first time) you’ve Totally misunderstood what I was arguing. I DIDN’T belittle Moore – I said IF he’d been ill or absent Byrne could have replaced him and as Byrne had not only just won two titles in 3 years AND an FA Cup (where he’d played 120 mins almost with a broken collarbone IN the Final) who is to say he wasn’t ‘in Moore’s class’?

The fact is he was a class defender, he’d HAD to have been to have won what he did and he Could have been used instead of Moore just as Greaves COULD have been used instead of Hurst (I notice you didn’t address THAT argument of mine did you? I wonder why…..) but they weren’t were they? Moore and Hurst played and the rest as they say is history……However, don’t ever think that replacements weren’t available as they WERE and THAT was the whole crux of Sir Alf's plan in the end (what I was trying to say?) that we had TWO players available in EVERY position? Allow me to explain.

Basically, what I was trying to get across to you is that for Alf Ramsey at that time, it was a SQUAD game – he had backup available for nearly EVERY position if you look at our team for ’66 – He was WAY ahead of his time in many ways, including that respect and to say that our team/World Cup challenge WOULD without any doubt have fallen apart WITHOUT the likes of Moore and Hurst in our side does YOUR argument no good whatsoever either as it shows you’ve TOTALLY misunderstood not just MY argument but also what our then manager Mr Ramsey was trying to achieve with his England side.

I agree BTW about Moore - Re him going far to early to cancer And he has my own admiration for recovering from it to play on as he did - I myself lost a Grandfather to this evil disease so know just what it can do. However, I think here you made a real mess not just of your own argument but in interpreting MINE. I have therefore decided to set you straight on just What I was trying to say. Hope my explanation makes sense this time………………

NB: IF you didn’t compare Hurst to Maradona then why did you say ‘there were 10 other players supporting Maradona, but all the other 10 could have been replaced and Argentina would still have won the World Cup. But without Maradona?’ just AFTER comparing Gerry Byrne to Geoff Hurst? Sounds like you were implying that our players Couldn’t have won it without Hurst in there to me just as Argentina ’86 couldn’t have done without Maradona no? And besides as I said you got that bit of my argument rather wrong anyway, I was comparing Byrne and Moore, NOT Byrne and Hurst. Anyway, hope I’ve cleared it up a bit above.

Hammersfan said...

Simon, I will have to set up a new blog to accommodate our debate! Can't you see how you defeat your own argument with regard to Heskey? He arrived as an exciting talent, as you rightly say, and over 4 seasons, steadily declined! Your stats prove it! So why did that happen? Doesn't that suggest that the Liverpool coaching staff / management did something wrong?

I love the way you quote McMannaman's success at Real Madrid to suggest he fulfilled his potential too! Do all players have to LEAVE Liverpool to achieve success? You know, if you are honest, that McMannaman is one of the great underachievers in an England shirt. Yes he had ONE good tournament, but that was it. He SHOULD have been a main man for England but never really made it - just like Fowler and Redknapp.

How much of that is down to the dreadful Little Liverpool attitude that pervades your City and fan base. At times, you Scousers sound like you hate England - the country and the national team. Of course, it's all down to the bloody great chip you all go around with on your shoulders. Bloody Thatcher, Bloody Rossers, Bloody UEFA for selecting Heysel, Bloody Murdoch and the Sun. It's always somebody else's fault...no Scouser is ever to blame! The whole world owes you Scousers a living!

Now on to David James. How many caps did he get with Liverpool and how many caps did he get with other clubs?

Back to Crouch - why did he want to leave? Because Rafa wasn't selecting him! So how you can say Rafa had nothing to do with it is beyond me! You can play with two strikers you know! Man Utd have done it with some success and so have Chelsea. Maybe if Liverpool gave it a go, you might win something!

Hammersfan said...

Your last installment overlapped mine Simon! I did say that Moore was our ONLY World Class player in 66. I can see how my reply to you was ambiguous; my point was that Moore, Hurst and Peters needed a supporting cast, just as Maradona needed one, but that the contribution of our three out weighed the contributions of the others by some distance. Hurst, despite his hat trick, was the weakest of the three, but his three goals remain a unique achievement in World Cup history!

I'm glad you acknowledge the status of Moore. For you to not do so would be like me calling Gerrard a Championship player. He obviously isn't, but he hasn't achieved his full potential sadly. Aged 21 he looked like he was going to be a true great. Sadly, his game has not developed as it should have done. Too much blood and thunder, too much wasted energy chasing lost causes. He has carried a sub standard Liverpool team on his back for far too long and it has restricted his development as a player in my opinion. I HOPE he proves me wrong in South Africa and smashes home the winner in the final!

Simon W said...

Finally, firstly TIS please allow me to clear something up. I know just WHY your club blow things like ‘Winning the World Cup’ out of proportion (Arsenal fans did the same in 1998 didn’t they?) and no I’m not an idiot – I wasn’t arguing against your saying – I but took exception to some of Hammersfans Arguments that’s all.

Anyway, to conclude with, I’ll take on the part of your argument that MOST interests me shall I Hammersfan? But first allow me to correct an earlier mistake of mine re David James shall I? You see SOME of us do our research properly. The error is this – David James made 277 appearences for Liverpool NOT 216 as originally put by me – the 216 were I think his STARTS for us – he had ANOTHER 61 appearences Besides that as well.

Now then – as I said, onto the final argument and the one that interests me the most by a LONG way. The row about why England isn’t producing young talent. I actually believe THAT is a truly HUGE argument and one that involves FAR more than just our leading clubs and managers but since you intend to take a pop at us. Allow me to begin there.

Which kids have had a chance to come through at Anfield? Well other than Warnock (who came through our Academy was a regular for us for TWO seasons during 2004/2005 AND 2005/2006 and who left because he was injury prone – he had THREE broken legs - NOT because Benitez disliked him) during the Benitez era we have also ‘blooded’/given Premier League football/debuts to many other English players including Jay Spearing, Darren Potter, Stephen Darby, Martin Kelly and most recently young Jack Robinson who was our youngest EVER player.
As to your packing his team with ‘mediocre foreign players’ crap; Well I’d hardly call Daniel Pacheco who was spoken of in many SPANISH quarters as their answer to Leo Messi and who Barcelona were FURIOUS that we took from their academy, Luis Garcia who he bought soon after coming here and who won us the European Cup with all his knockout round goals AND Pepe Reina whose become THE best Goalkeeper in the Premier League bar NONE to name but a few of those so-called ‘mediocre’ players would you? I think you’d be DELIGHTED to have ANY of those in your ranks at West Ham no? And that’s not even mentioning THE best striker on the planet in Fernando Torres.

Indeed with Liverpool recently buying up as much young ENGLISH talent as they can find I think YOU might end up THANKING us in the future for grooming/bringing through the England side of the FUTURE!!! I don’t know if you kept up – Quite obviously you haven’t in many ways but recently Liverpool have been buying up young, talented ENGLISH youngsters all over the place, including players of the caliber of Raheem Stirling, Jonjo Shelvey and soon Danny Wilson of Rangers – several of whom have rejected clubs like Arsenal (who have Youth Academies you no doubt admire no?), Tottenham and even Chelsea to JOIN Liverpool ahead of them all.

Simon W said...

And finally we come to your absurd excuse for ‘classifying’ players – If Gerrard who has dominated FA and European Cup Finals and utterly DESTROYED Germany in their own backyard as well as ripping the heart out of a Croatian side that did so well in the recent Euro’s last September is NOT a Great Player than please pray tell me who IS? I agree that Moore was a great outfield England player and Gascoigne (when he had his head on and not clouded by drink which wasn’t much) but Rooney? We’ll see – I’ve NEVER seen him dominate a REALLY important game like an FA or European Cup Final in the manner Gerrard has and indeed in his one SERIOUS test in an England shirt against Portugal in 2006? He lost his head completely and was sent off.

If Gerrard isn’t a great player yet then it’s clearly ONLY because he’s not done it for England or because your ridiculous ratings criteria are skewed as the ONLY games he’s NOT dominated yet have been with England and that’s because most England managers idiotically select the rather more limited Lampard ahead of him in his favourite position and thus sacrifice his unique talents to shoehorn in someone else. THAT is why Gerrard doesn’t often run games for England as he should. But if Gerrard ISN’T a great, then he’s certainly EASILY in the second tier as he’s FAR better than Shearer, Beckham AND Hoddle (who doesn’t belong in this level anyway), Lineker (who DOES) and probably slightly better than Bryan Robson (whose actually said so Himself on at least One occasion), I’d say due to his current failures in an England shirt BTW that Rooney to belongs in the second tier as well since Gerrard is at Least his equal.

As to your ‘very goods’? Well other than including Glen Hoddle HERE rather than in the second tier and NOT including Gerrard or Lineker as they’re both rather better, I’d agree with you about Lampard, Rio, Waddle, Sansom, Ashley Cole, Sheringham, and Adams. Yes, there’s Plenty in the same bracket who you’ve forgotten – Terry is probably one simply for his sheer durability, Mcmanaman who was criminally underused by England and underrated by the idiot Sven is another and Emlyn Hughes who Captained England for a long time and was a great player who was vital to the side is a third.

Simon W said...

No Hammersfan - You want to know WHY we REALLY might not have an England team soon – Or at least a competitive one? Well, this is why I said it’s a HUGE argument – England have a number of ENDEMIC problems that have troubled as far back as since the 1930’s even. Technical Ability or rather our woeful LACK of it, lack of Adaptability in our National Team AND it’s managers and most of all, Youth Team grooming to REMEDY those problems.

Put simply for a long, long time now – Our game has prized speed, strength and ‘hustling’ ability above technical ability, tactical adaptability and basic ball skills. Our older players show this now in their woeful lack of ability when compared to their world and continental counterparts in match after match (look at our ability as compared in the defeats under Capello to Spain, Brazil and even France).

Our Youth teams MAKE this problem by the way they are run. They prize WINNING games and unbeaten runs above DEVELOPING our young players skills and they play on MASSIVE pitches which only the most athletic/muscular boys will do well on. The technicians/skill merchants? They get literally run off the park and outmuscled time after time.

Your own former great Mr Brooking who is the FA’s Technical Director COULD remedy this by forcibly LIMITING the size of pitches that our youngsters are allowed to play on and by INSISTING that the objectives of youth football are to DEVELOP not WIN with youngsters – but even HE does not see this problem and THAT my friend is why England players are nothing like as good as they should be nor coming through in anything like the numbers they should.

We have a flawed philosophy right THROUGH our football and it needs reforming from top to bottom to change that. As yet there’s little sign of such reform – hence the deterioration of the England team in some recent years.
By the way – your arguments would hold a LOT more weight if you stopped with petty digs at my team and tried to actually DEBATE a bit more my friend.

You then went on from your groundless and really rather weak arguments with a load of digs about who was good from totally different squads (Man U and Everton) to ours at Liverpool. Firstly if you want to talk about Rodwell coming through Everton’s Academy? Well possibly but then for Rooney and Rodwell from them, there was Owen and Gerrard from US.

And to the United comparisms? Giggs is a WINGER – Not a comparism to Gerrard at all – You want to compare Beckham and Gerrard fine but I think it’s clear that Gerrard is by FAR the better player of those two.
As to who Liverpool have produced since 1990 – Yes there was Fowler (and again you get your FACTS wrong like a fool – Fowler had a couple of AWFUL injuries which limited his effectiveness at Liverpool, never mind England level), Owen, Gerrard, Carragher all also came through and quite apart from them there was David James who came to us as a teenager, Don Hutchison, Mike Marsh who later played for YOUR club, Stephen Warnock, Steve Mcmanaman, Danny Murphy, Rob Jones who was at least the equal of Gary Neville at Right-back again but for Injuries and Neil Mellor.

I didn’t blame West Ham for England’s failures – I blamed the ATTITUDE that often your fans and indeed most London fans epitomise – that of ‘little England’ where you shout for success above all else, are not patient – WON’T accept that the type of football you demand of your teams has to be BRED into teams/countries over time and that your demands for success are causing coaches to play youth teams to WIN instead of DEVELOP youngsters as they should do.

You refuse to believe that ANYONE out of London does ANYTHING for England and produce arguments with all the value of an Umbrella in a monsoon to back up such rubbish with facts about as useful as a snowball in a furnace. THAT is what I was having a go at. I acknowledge you have a good Academy and produce good young players – but isn’t it rather odd that they ALWAYS leave you before succeeding?

Simon W said...

I agree re the new blog for our debate but I’ll TRY and be shorter this time!! To put simply, No, I CAN’T see how I defeat my own argument re Heskey – I don’t think the problem at Liverpool was with our STAFF – I think it was with the PLAYER – Why? Well look at his time at Leicester City – He spent FIVE years there as this so-called ‘exciting talent’ – He came to us at the age of 22!! Hardly ‘young’ no? And during his loooong time at Leicester he made 4 more appearances than at Liverpool and scored only ONE more goal – which means he scored more goals more QUICKLY whilst at Liverpool to come so close to MATCHING that total in LESS time yes?

The fact his goals came in fits and starts and he had so many long goalless droughts AND that since leaving Anfield he’s score what? 4 less goals in 34 at THREE different clubs than he did at Liverpool is entirely HIS fault – You can’t blame LFC for Heskey not possessing the ‘strikers instinct’ and being so awful in front of goal as he so clearly IS.

Houllier played him SO much that he often played MORE than ALL our other forwards at the time and indeed, he forced Fowler out to accommodate Emile – so Liverpool did MORE than enough to give Heskey a chance – The fact he didn’t take it means the fault is entirely his own and probably has rather a lot to do with the appalling lack of skill in English Youngsters which often coalesces into fumbling/being terrible in front of goal and embarrassing ball control errors as the players get older. Had a look at Heskey anyone? Sound Familiar? It SHOULD…………

I quoted Mcmanaman’s success since YOU said he had NO success at all!! I was simply pointing out to you that he DID succeed and rather well at some points in his career. And in just saying that I ‘quote Mcmanaman’s success’ YOU my friend have destroyed your OWN argument as earlier did you not say ‘McMannaman, not that he ever fulfilled his potential’ – You spelt his name wrong as well.’ Mcmanaman an underachiever? Well he got to a semi-final with HIS particular England team which NO one in an England shirt has done for what FOURTEEN years now since 1996? WHEN MACCA PLAYED!!! If Macca’s an underachiever – what does that make the likes of Lampard, Joe Cole, John Terry, Jermain Defoe and the more RECENT England players et al – most of the ones from your beloved Hammers Academy funnily enough.

And to say that Mcmanaman SHOULD have been the main man for England? Possibly but at the time – I seem to remember the muddled Venables trying to arrange his England team around a fading, old Gascoigne – in much the same way subsequent England managers SHOULD have had Gerrard at the heart of their team yet use a lesser talent in Lampard to his detriment and calls from the likes of you that Gerrard’s not good enough – erm, No, the national managers of both Gerrard AND Mcmanaman DON’T know how to USE them!!!

Simon W said...

And now to your utter CRAP about ‘Little Liverpool’? I can’t BELIEVE a Londoner - the AUTHORS of the ‘Little England’/Ingerlund attitude is even THINKING of peddling such trash in a serious argument but here we go again. Allow me to embarrass you a little more and destroy yet MORE risible excuses for arguments that have NOTHING to do with football – It’s like shooting fish in a barrel, it really is – Why give me such HUGE targets except to detract from the sheer Weakness of your own football arguments?

You're right in some respect – we DO hate the England team – or more accurately – some of it’s idiot fans who slate our players non-stop for the England managers failings (now where have I heard THAT recently?). As to hating the country? Possibly but then the rest of the country shouldn’t treat us like foreigners, attack us, take the mickey out of us and THEN expect us to bond with them if they don’t want THAT should they? Chip on the shoulders? Possibly – I think the fact Thatcher did her best to destroy industry, jobs and everything else in the city might have had something to do with that;

UEFA for selecting Heysel? Well if YOU think it’s FINE to play a European Cup Final in a crumbling stadium with NO segregation and parts of the crumbled stadium freely available as missiles? Then you’re an even bigger idiot than you sound and THAT is big enough. Murdoch and the Sun? I won’t even go there in explaining how STUPID you are for bringing that up – Read THIS
(http://www.anfieldroad.com/dont-buy-the-sun/) and you’ll see just WHY we hate it and that Aussie tw*t Murdoch.

We’re not to blame for much of the crap Londoners and idiots who don’t understand a THING about us heap on us and THAT is why we’re so defensive – We admit it when we’re at fault but when we’re NOT – We’re FULLY entitled to defend ourselves to the death and if you don’t like that? Tough….. .

So what is it now re David James? You earlier were arguing about his Appearances but now you’re argument regarding that has been comprehensively destroyed it suddenly changes to England Caps? I think you rather conveniently (or Deliberately maybe?) forgot that David Seaman was in his pomp during Jame’s Liverpool days so if he had less caps then? It was only natural.

As to Crouch – STOP embarrassing yourself! Rafa’ Wasn’t Selecting him? Ok – when he was our second top goalscorer in 2007/2008 – which was Torres’ first season and he was our TOP goalscorer the season before? I think not. Now HOW many times do I HAVE to tell you? Rafa’ OFFERED Crouch a new contract – it was the thought of playing behind TORRES in the pecking order that decided him to move – NOT Rafa’!! Even Crouch himself has said that Since he left and between Crouch and Torres for ONE position? There is NO choice.

Regarding your crap about two strikers? Don’t lecture or try to patronise ME with your trash about twin strikers? BTW I don’t think ANY teams won something with two upfront since probably France at the Euros and THAT was a decade ago now. I didn’t notice Chelsea under Mourinho win TWO titles by playing two strikers when they used ONE up front – Nor United under Fergie recently – All they did was pack the midfield – make ROONEY run the wings and let Ronaldo do the damage and I should know – EVERY time they’ve come to Anfield in recent years – United have played ONE upfront and defended with 10 behind the ball for 90 minutes – It even USED to work for them until 13th September 2008 anyway. Doesn’t sound exactly like the two free flowing teams that you in between your drooling and shouting about their greatness are saying DOES it?......Idiot.

Simon W said...

NB: That’s all I’m going to say on here for now friend – I think I’ve wasted enough time and energy exposing your ‘arguments’ for what they are and I’ve certainly KNACKERED my arms out so as I’ve a 1 year old Little Boy to deal with all day, I’m done on here for now. Hope you enjoyed reading what I’ve written and sad that we contradict each other so much but if you will write rubbish then it WILL be exposed for what it is………….

Simon W said...

And finally, since I’m UTTERLY knackered after all that writing. I’ll make this as brief as I can. I didn’t say Moore, Hurst and Peters didn’t do their part to winning the World Cup OR that their contribution outweighed that of the others. What I said was that they were ALL expendable in Ramsey’s eyes AT THE TIME. You earlier were speaking as though they were irreplaceable – I disagree. I believe that in Sir Alf Ramsey’s eyes – ANYONE was replacable in his side. Yes Moore probably WAS a better defender than Byrne (though not by much) but at the same time he Could have been replaced by the inferior Byrne no? After all didn’t Ramsey remove our Best Striker at the time in Greaves from the front line to replace him with Hurst? THAT is what I was trying to say – Yes, they did well – yes they were good (and in one case World Class) players but they were NOT irreplaceable as you argued earlier – Ramsey was Years ahead of his time and played a SQUAD game which meant that any of them could have been replaced at ANY time.

I obviously acknowledge the status of the ONLY England Captain to win anything of value at Full International level. But I also say you’re talking rather a lot of rubbish in Saying Gerrard hasn’t fulfilled his potential – He’s won the UEFA Cup, 2 FA Cups, 2 League Cups, a European Cup and come VERY close to the League Title, He’s Dominated games for England when played in his PROPER Position – dominated FA, League, UEFA and European Cup Finals, scoring in ALL of them.

In fact the ONLY two things he’s NOT done yet are winning the League Title or winning A trophy with England – If THAT is not fulfillment of potential, then WHAT is? Also – you really don’t recognise his game Do you? The ‘blood and thunder’ and ‘chasing lost causes’ as you put them is PART of his game – he CAN’T dominate games like he does WITHOUT them – Why do you think he used to play so well when he had Alonso at Anfield to do the Midfield passing part and Mascherano to do the chasing lost causes and tackling so he could cause ALL the damage he was able to with his ‘blood and thunder’ attacking game in 2008/2009? That was because for the first (and ONLY) time in his career he had a midfield set up PROPERLY around him for his attacking instincts in the way England SHOULD set up to get the best out of him and Rooney (like Liverpool did him and Torres that year).

He carried a standard Liverpool team did he? What were they standard/mediocre when they got 80 points in 2002, 82 in 2006 and 86 (which Chelsea WON the Premier League with in the season just gone ) in 2009? Liverpool finished second on TWO of those occasions and damn near took the title – They also won in the decade just gone – 2 FA Cups, a UEFA Cup, 2 League Cups, a European Cup, A Super Cup and were Runners up in the Champions League AND the Premier League twice – Doesn’t sound so ‘standard’ Now does it Hammersfan? You were right about his development being restricted as a player only in respect of when Houllier was at the club as HE didn’t know how to set up the midfield to get the best out of Gerrard unlike Rafa’ Benitez who quite clearly DID.

The flaws in his game now – the occasional flash of temper and the inability to dominate a game with passes ala Alonso – are flaws that have plagued him since boyhood – they cause difficulties in SPITE of his Liverpool training, not BECAUSE of it. The Gerrard you saw in the season before the one just finished (2008/2009) and when we won the FA Cup (2005/2006) was good enough to win the PFA Award in 2006 and the Football Writers Award in 2009 and as great as ANY England Player has ever been. I share your opinion that I HOPE he wins the World Cup Final for us this July but to say he’s not already Great is ridiculous – He’s proved how great he is in nearly EVERY way he can………………

Hammersfan said...

Simon, the two different James stats are for his league appearances and for his total number of appearances for Liverpool, including cup competitions.

There's so much to answer again but let's start with Heysel. Tell me, why weren't there deaths in the stadium before that Liverpool game? Are Liverpool fans animals? Do they have to be segregated, like wolves have to be kept away from lambs? Stop blaming the stadium, look at what Liverpool fans did in that stadium. I wouldn't have behaved in that way.

Now to Heskey. You said it yourself, Houllier "forced Fowler out to accommodate Emile" and for that, Emile was never forgiven. You can't replace a cult hero and Liverpool fans were intent on getting him for replacing the main man. That's why Owen was never taken truly to heart. He played a role in slaying Robbie too. Of course, the demise of Fowler had nothing to do with sniffing white lines did it?

Your list of Liverpool greats was a bit embarrassing wasn't it? And you seem to forget that Emlyn came through the Barrow and Blackpool youth teams, not the Liverpool academy! All these players who "nearly" made it. But how few actually made it?

Of course some of your foreign imports are quality players but too many are not. Too many are "quick fixes" who stand in the way of developing young British talent at Liverpool. Why do you think West Ham have been a production line of England players whilst Liverpool hasn't? Surely Liverpool should be streets ahead of a club like West Ham in producing talent shouldn't it? The facts show the reverse is true.

On the subject of two strikers, Anelka and Drogba were teamed together for quite a bit of this season! How many goals did Chelsea score this season?

With regard to Gerrard, compare his medals to those of Beckham, Scholes and Giggs. How many Premiership titles? I'll ask again, how many Premiership titles. In fact, I'll ask a third time, how many Premiership titles? And how many trophies last season?

Rafa's on his way isn't he?

Simon W said...

Hammersfan – I WAS going to answer you by destroying in detail YET again your pathetic excuse for an argument but having read your pathetic EXCUSE for an argument and the sewer bilge you wrote regarding Heysel I’ve decided differently now. I think by writing the utter TRASH you wrote and similar crap earlier and consistently throughout our exchanges you’ve proven yourself to be nothing but a nasty little man with a chip on his shoulder the size of the Cliffs of Dover – probably an Angry Little West Ham Fan who enjoys taking the mickey out of Clubs FAR larger and more successful than their own or more likely glorying in their misery like the intellectual pygmy and moral vulture that you quite clearly are.

I’ve therefore decided to answer your ‘points’ such as they are (and my SON whose barely just turned 1 Year of Age could produce a more coherent argument than the toilet paper you’ve assembled here) as concisely as I can and then wash my hands of you.

I won’t be back to answer again – I’ve give you ENOUGH of my time and effort only to see my Club, it’s City and it’s wonderful People insulted quite gratuitously by an idiot who clearly knows NOTHING of what they speak and by the way – Whatever made you think I live in Liverpool? You got that one rather wrong like so much else.

Anyway, onto your points; To begin with; Yes I know what the two stats were for James – I PUT that in an earlier post of mine – Did you not read it? Still 277 appearances (which is his TOTAL appearances) is FAR ahead of ANY other one of his clubs SINCE leaving Anfield isn’t it?

Simon W said...

Now then – the first REAL issue; You want to talk about Heysel and DARE to call my Clubs fans animals? Let me deal with your moral trash shall I? How do YOU know there WEREN’T deaths in the Stadium BEFORE the Liverpool game? Do you have the ENTIRE history of the Stadium to hand? No, so I suggest you refrain from such sweeping (and wrong) moral judgements before making yourself look even more of an idiot. Fact is there were MANY deaths at that TYPE of stadium in the 70’s and 80’s and with Hindsight, Heysel or something like it was ALWAYS going to happen – You don’t believe me? Then what do you think the likes of the Ibrox and Valley Parade Disasters were leading up to?

Furthermore, WHY do you think thanks to the pig headed response of English Authority in it’s typical way (i.e. blame ALL bar the system and REFUSE to change it) there was fated to be an ever MORE awful disaster – again sadly involving my Club BEFORE things were changed? The fact is ALL fans were herded around AND segregated like Animals in the 80’s because of JUST such fears as were realised at Heysel – It was only WHEN fans were seated and fences abolished that fears of Hooliganism receded – Treat people like animals and they will BEHAVE like that – Don’t and? Well, you get the picture no?

As to whether our fans are animals – Well no I think not, study the FACTS of what happened just below and you’ll see why – Also I think YOUR fans with their ‘Inter City Firm’ was it? And the delightful followers of Millwall and Chelsea – The former who LOVED storming visiting trains and the latter with their ‘Headhunters’ had rather a stronger claim to the title of ‘Animals’ at that particular time in the game’s history no?

Why SHOULDN’T I blame the stadium? Especially when UEFA admitted many times in the years afterwards and even before that A) They made their policy for dealing with crowds up ‘on the hoof’ as it were and B) Heysel WAS unsuited for a major European Final and that game should NEVER have been played there. Also, you CLEARLY haven’t done your homework HAVE you? Else you wouldn’t look even MORE like an idiot when I tell you just WHY our fans reacted as they did. You didn’t study the facts of the night did you? Juventus Fans are the ones who began bombarding OUR fans with pieces of the stadium – OUR fans threw it back and ran at some of them due to the fac that the year before IN Italy many of those same fans had been stabbed in the back, legs and buttocks by roaming Italian Thugs (many on scooters) after we beat Roma in their own Backyard to win the European Cup.

Now consider THAT – Are you Seriously telling me that IF you’d been to one European Cup Final and been stabbed/seen close friends attacked at close quarters and fans from the SAME country started attacking you AGAIN a year later at Another – you WOULDN’T react in kind? Because if you say Yes to that you’re an idiot or a liar – from what I know of you by now, possibly BOTH anyway. It wasn’t just the stadium that was wrong that night – It was a combination of behaviour from BOTH sets of fans, the choice of Stadium by UEFA, the stadium itself, the policing and whole WAY fans were treated in the 80’s. EVERYTHING led up to a ticking timebomb which that night of ALL nights? Went off…………..

Simon W said...

Onto the rest now: Heskey? What argument is it THIS time you’ve presented to me? First it was ‘Liverpool RUINED Heskey’s England career’ Once I’d established that erm, No – LFC actually HELPED said career and he had the BULK of his appearances for England (there won’t be many more after this summer) AND the bulk of what few goals he scored for England while with us, it changed to ‘Liverpool RUINED Heskey as a striker’. Once I’d proven that no, far from that – he had his MOST effective and BEST years as a striker with us and has gone downhill ever since? You’ve decided to change it again no?

YOU, who call my ‘List of Liverpool Greats who played for England’ a bit embarrassing (a charge I’ll destroy in due course below) but don’t YOU think this rather desperate changing of the goalposts EVERY time your argument is skewered is EQUALLY Humiliating? Just give it up Hammersfan – On Hesky – You’ve LOST.

No, we DIDN’T force Heskey out for getting rid of Robbie – he HAD to go by the summer of 2004 and was probably a YEAR to late!!! He was stagnating, getting worse, even Lazy – au contraire to your pathetic argument about him being under threat – by THEN he did BADLY as his place upfront was ASSURED by Houllier – DESPITE his decline. By 2004, Heskey was doing nothing with us as was his manager who soon went out of the door WITH him.

Regarding the rest? No – Robbie was ALWAYS going to go as HE could not Stand Houllier who returned the favour in spades – read his Autobiography if you don’t believe me – Heskey was just another excuse that’s all – It could easily have been Milan Baros, Titi Camara, the Training Ground Row with Phil Thompson – Houllier used any NUMBER of things against Robbie when he was with us.

Owen? No our crowd NEVER took him to heart as he ALWAYS behaved like a Mercenary and quite clearly ALWAYS put playing for his country AHEAD of playing for his employers and when those employers are THE biggest club in the country? That’s NOT going to be forgotten by our fans – put it that way. Owen had nothing at all to do with Robbie going Mercenary little T**t that he is!!

As to ‘White Lines’ Re Robbie? God, you REALLY are scraping the barrel here aren’t you? The fact is THAT incident occurred what a full THREE years or so BEFORE Robbie left us AND his manager DEFENDED him in public after it – How you can thus infer it played a Central part in Robbie’s departure I’ll Never know. As I said above – Houllier had Plenty to have a go at Robbie about WITHOUT including something he himself had Defended Robbie over (and which was only a response to the inane, pathetic and repeated chants of ‘Smackhead’ from Everton Fans anyway – It’s not Robbie’s fault if THEY are to precious to take such a clever response OR if the FA have NO sense of humour IS it?)

Simon W said...

My list of Liverpool greats from our Academy was because you didn’t ask me to do it in detail but if you want I’ll oblige now (BTW I noticed in YOUR arguments re West Ham’s Academy earlier YOU were using a few players West Ham had ‘poached’ from elsewhere INTO their Academy like Defoe so I’ll do likewise by including a number of players who spent the MAJORITY of their Youth Team Footballing Careers in OUR Academy’s, After all, fair’s fair no?);

Anyway – From our Academy or from TIME in our Academy, we developed Gary Ablett, Steven Gerrard, Michael Owen, David Thompson, Rob Jones, Ian Rush, Ronnie Whelan, Kevin Sheedy (who went on to do well elsewhere), Sammy Lee, Jimmy Case, Neil Mellor, Robbie Fowler, Steve Mcmanaman, Stephen Warnock, Nicky Tanner, Tommy Smith, Ian Callaghan, Roger Hunt, Gerry Byrne, Steve Staunton and Mike Marsh. Now those players have between them won something like 17 League Titles (including 2 in Spain), 2 Spanish SuperCups (Spanish FA Cups), 9 FA Cups, 9 League Cups, 7 European Cups, 1 Divison 2 Title, 1 European Cup-Winners Cup, 3 UEFA Cups and of course 1 World Cup for a few of them . As well as that, there’s 3 Football Writers Award, 1 European Player of the Year Award and 3 PFA Player of the Year Awards and Numerous other Runner’s Up Medals in there as well.

Quite a bit - That little lot for such an ‘embarrassing’ crop of players from an Academy you’ve rather slated (as usual knowing NOTHING of what you speak) no? In fact I think NOTHING blasts more of a hole in your risible excuse for an ‘argument’ before than the FACT that those players FROM our Academy have between them not only won MORE honours than even Liverpool FC themselves have won but also they’ve won only ONE less title than we have in our entire history and ALL of them were nurtured at our Academy – you want to talk about Academy’s who HAVE an effect and produce REAL, winning footballers? THERE is your example, no better one than THAT no? It certainly rather puts West Ham, Man City and even Arsenal’s recent Academy’s and United’s so called ‘fledglings’ into perspective since it PROVES that Anfield has been producing successful footballers for what? FOUR decades now – and they have been CONSISTENTLY good as well;

WHAT have any of the others I’ve mentioned won with the players they’ve produce to compare to THAT haul? Nothing LIKE it, that’s what and that my friend destroys ANY argument to the contrary by sheer weight of numbers AND silverware. It CAN’T be coincidence that Liverpool FC have nurtured SO many successful footballers after reading THAT list can it? As to moaning about our Foreigners? Well we’ve one in Dietmar Hamman who played in the 2002 World Cup Final and another in Patrik Berger who SCORED in the 1996 European Championship Fianl; BOTH of these were in our RECENT past.

And you want a list of players from Liverpool that have played for England? How about Callaghan, Smith, Hunt (who helped England win the World Cup), Mcdermott, Keegan, Mcmahon, Mcmanaman, Lawler, Fowler, Kirkland, Hughes, Jones, Beardsley, Barnes, Crouch, Gerrard, Carragher, Johnson, James, Wright, Lee, Owen, Collymore, Ince, Murphy, Lawler, Milne, Clemence, Neal, Lloyd, Lindsay, Thompson, Kennedy (R), Alan Kennedy (A), Walsh, Redknapp, Ruddock, Thompson (Phil), Heskey and Thompson (Peter) going back to the 60’s or so. Is THAT enough? 40 players in the last 4 decades or so that we’ve provided for England – a good deal MORE than West Ham no? Or any OTHER club I think to with the possible exception of Manchester United or Arsenal. Rather puts your useless ‘Liverpool give NOTHING for England’ remark into context no?

NB And DON’T bother looking for ones where I got the England appearances wrong – the ONLY one remotely in question of those I looked at is whether Paul Walsh played for us when he appeared for England – the rest all DEFINITELY played for their country while playing for us. You see Hammersfan? ONE of us HAS done our homework here and it’s NOT you………….

Simon W said...

You want to moan and snipe about Gerrard’s titles then fine –But I’ll say this. Remember David O’Leary when HE was a player? He went 18 seasons without a title at Highbury and saw players like Brady, Stapleton, Sunderland and MANY others leave without winning English honours and then? RIGHT at the end – He won TWO Titles in as many seasons – Same with Bryan Robson – HE Won TWO titles RIGHT at the end of his career at United just when he and the rest had given up hope so I suggest you keep your schadenfrude to yourself UNTIL Steven Gerrard has retired BEFORE you make fun of his career – He’s won EVERYTHING there is to win bar ONE trophy and there’s still time for him to win that. Doesn’t the saying go “He who laughs last laughs longest” No? Well I suggest that just maybe it is Gerrard who will laugh last. Just watch this ALWAYS happens and with Gerrard it WILL to – He will be no exception to THAT rule – I’ve a feeling there’s ONE last surprise waiting for us with regard to the career of Gerrard and knowing him, it will be THE most spectacular surprise of all…………

As to Rafa? Yes, He’s unfortunately been removed from office by those with about as much understanding of football as YOU. They know NOTHING and WILL regret removing him. He’s a better man than them, all the press and ALL who insulted him like you whilst he was in England and WILL prove that wherever he goes next, he is a FAR better manager to. His removal might just mean our owner’s removal as well; Hicks and Gillette WILL regret what they’ve done, However Long it takes. They WILL pay for what they’ve done to our club……………….

Simon W said...

I’ll finish off by finishing off YOUR transparent arguments about our foreign players shall I? They’re about as weak as the truly pathetic ones you presented regarding England players Liverpool NOT streets ahead of West Ham in Producing Talent? LOOK at the list I just did and WHAT those players won AND how many players we’ve given to England over FOUR decades – MORE than ANY other club nearly and NOW try arguing such rubbish. And Liverpool AREN’T a production line for England talent? The better part of nearly HALF our teams have been selected for England continuously for nearly 3 decades now!!!

Our foreign players are ALL quick fixes are they? Ok, when they include the BEST Defensive Midfielder on the planet in Mascherano (who YOUR football – conscious club who are SO great at spotting talent blatantly MISSED), the best striker in Torres AND the Best Goalkeeper in the PL in Reina as well as recently, World Cup Finalists like Dietmar Hamann and Winners like Karl Heinz Riedle along with European Championship Finalists Like Patrik Berger?

Well I think it’s safe to say your argument rather falls apart when up against THAT fact no? Add to it the fact that even our so-called ‘talent blockers’ in the likes of Pongolle and Le-Tallec in recent years have won the Champions League or won it almost single handedly for us in the Case of Luis Garcia who also contributed greatly to winning us the FA Cup as did his countryman Fernando Morientes who is one of THE most celebrated strikers on the planet; When even the youngsters amongst our foreign recruits have also helped us finish as Premier League Runners Up with players like Lucas and N’gog as well? Well, then I really don’t think you’ve GOT much of an argument there HAVE you?

Chelsea may indeed have twinned Anelka and Drogba this year but they DIDN’T when they won 2 Titles and so many Cups under Mourinho did they? Nor did United use anything OTHER than a ‘One Up Front’ system in their recent Title-Successes. As to the Title – what if Idiots like you DO want to laugh about Gerrard not winning it yet? A) You sound like a broken record and B) You LOOK like an idiot for using the trick the media ALWAYS use of acting like Gerrard SHOULD have won the title in a team who are financially hamstrung with barely ONE 20 million pound player in their ranks now (2 if you go back a year) as against a United side with FIVE such players in midfield alone or a Chelsea side who’ve spent Hundreds of Millions of pounds on talent over the last 7 seasons.

Answer me this idiot – IF Rafa’ is SUCH a bad coach then HOW did he get SO close to the title on a budget more akin to YOUR club as against spending like THAT and in the process he racked up the SAME number of points Chelsea got LAST season with only TWO defeats as opposed to Chelsea’s SIX? Doesn’t that mean Rafa’ produced a side BETTER than the eventual Champions when he left? And isn’t the two Titles he won at Valencia, his UEFA Cup there, the Champions League AND FA Cup at Liverpool PROOF of his consistency, quality and ability as a Manager? Of course it is.

Hammersfan said...

LOL Check out how you contradict yourself Simon!

1) Liverpool didn't damage Heskey's career but, in your words, he was "stagnating" at Liverpool.

2) Gerrard is going to win the Premiership but G&H are going to regret sacking Rafa! How is that going to work? Is Gerrard off to Chelsea or Man Utd then.

3) Wasn't our debate about players produced since 1990? I didn't trawl back and include Brooking, Moore, Hurst, Peters, Frank Lampard Senior, Cottee, etcetera. In your absolute desperation, you go back to the Ark! And interestingly, I still can't see any very good England players other than Gerrard and Owen. By the way, it was Lawlor not Lawler.

4)Sniffing white lines aint clever for a professional footballer and it don't matter that it was three years later - the damage is long term! Your tirade about Fowler is "Typically Scouse". You see, he is your God and everybody else is to blame except Robbie The Line Sniffer himself!

5) As for your tirade against Owen, this shows what a bitter, bitter man you are. 216 league appearances and 118 goals for the team he loved, and you treat him like shit. He didn't want to leave. He was forced out. And he wanted to come back but Rafa forced him into the arms of the Mancs. Now, because he plays for your rivals, you hate him. You sad, bitter man! And in case you come back at me, I am a huge fan of Lampard and feel, like Owen, that he is treated unfairly by the supporters of my club.

6)Your defence of Liverpool fans in the Heysel Stradium says it all. Children were murdered because LIVERPOOL fans tried to storm the Juventus fans. There is no argument about this. How DARE you defend such animalistic behaviour. Children, pensioners, women, MURDERED and you defend what happened. That is sick mate, sick. And again, I am no apologist for the ICF and the animals who support my club. Check the history on this blog and see what I said after the West Ham v Millwall game this season and what I say about the disgraceful behaviour of our fans when we play Spurs. But I do not have the "Little West Ham Fan" mentality that all you Liverpool fans have when it comes to your club and City. Wasn't that our starting point? I can see the bigger picture because I don't look at the world out of the crack of my own arse!